I think you were actually on the right track. (Remember, the easy runs are there in part to build capacity so you can do even more on the hard days.) My guess is that your workouts were not progressing and likely not nearly hard enough. I would do a six-week block where your workouts are on hills, to build up some strength. Then back to what you were doing, but make the track days harder (faster paces, more reps), do some longer tempos or ride a little closer to the line, and make one of those two workouts hill-focused every two or three weeks.
I (24, male, thin but never particularly athletic) started running relatively late (age 19) and from the jump I was focused on keeping easy runs easy and running as much mileage as possible. Within a year I was running 50 miles per week, and within another I was doing those 50 mpw with consistent, hard (but not too hard) workouts — usually a tempo and a track workout every week, a 90+ minute LR every Sunday, plus regular strides/hills. 50 mpw is high volume for a guy running 9+ minutes/mile, but I listened to my body and I never got injured.
My HR kept dropping, my workouts kept improving, and yet my race times never improved. After three years of (relatively) consistent training like this, my SB mile time worsened from 6:11 to 6:31 (both indoor, same track) and my 5k PR squeaked from ~22 minutes to 21:37. By September 2023 I was doubling 4x/week running 60 miles/9 hours of weekly volume and even though my body felt great it was just too much. To train so much and stay so slow can turn you into a bit of a headcase. I got so frustrated I quit for 9 months, but as of last Monday I'm back.
It's not up for debate whether those years of high volume helped me — even after 9 months off, an easy run at around 9' pace still has me at a HR of ~140-150, and my body became very efficient with recovery. But I'm 6 feet tall, I've got pretty long legs, and it felt like my 9-10' easy pace was so physiologically different from 6-7' pace that nothing besides pure aerobic gains translated. Luckily, the aerobic gains are still there, even after almost a year of no running.
I'm tired of banging my head against the wall with high, uber-slow mileage. I think, at least for the summer, I'm going to stick to ~30 mpw max, not worry about workouts besides strides, and see if I can pick up the pace a bit. Does this make any sense from a training perspective, or would I be better served just sucking it up and getting back on the mileage grind? Would appreciate some perspective.
How is it even possible to do 50 mpw for an entire year and run over 20 min 5k?
How is it even possible that so many people don't understand the concept of genetic limits?
nicest thing to say is that running isn't for you if this applies to you. I took my dad (50 yo) from no running experience at all to 19:20 in 2 months of running from just 40mpw. If you run for 3 years and are doing actual workouts, strides and long runs and running 50mpw and cant even run 20 minutes then you should find another sport. You basically have no chance of ever running a good time.
Obviously if you're 70+ then what I said above isn't quite applicable to you ^.
You could probably benefit from some kind of 200m repeat workout to get you more used to speed.
This is it. This guy needs to get used to running hard and fast. If I were coaching this guy, in the 5K, my week would look like this. Week 1
Monday: 5 miles easy. Tuesday: 2 mile warm up, 6x400 hard, 4x200 hard, 1 mile cool down Wednesday: 8 miles easy Thursday: 8 miles easy Friday: 2 mile warm up, 5x1000 with 400 meter jogs, 1 mile cool down Saturday: OFF Sunday: 10-12 miles easy, run the last two hard.
Week 2:
Monday: 5 miles easy. Tuesday: 2 mile warm up, 20-25 minute tempo, 4x200 hard, 1 mile cool down Wednesday: 8 miles easy Thursday: 8 miles easy Friday: 2 mile warm up, 10-12 x Hill Repeats, 35-45 seconds, 1 mile cool down Saturday: OFF Sunday: 10-12 miles easy
This will get you continually running hard and fast. You need to build power/strength on the short stuff.
I (24, male, thin but never particularly athletic) started running relatively late (age 19) and from the jump I was focused on keeping easy runs easy and running as much mileage as possible. Within a year I was running 50 miles per week, and within another I was doing those 50 mpw with consistent, hard (but not too hard) workouts — usually a tempo and a track workout every week, a 90+ minute LR every Sunday, plus regular strides/hills. 50 mpw is high volume for a guy running 9+ minutes/mile, but I listened to my body and I never got injured.
My HR kept dropping, my workouts kept improving, and yet my race times never improved. After three years of (relatively) consistent training like this, my SB mile time worsened from 6:11 to 6:31 (both indoor, same track) and my 5k PR squeaked from ~22 minutes to 21:37. By September 2023 I was doubling 4x/week running 60 miles/9 hours of weekly volume and even though my body felt great it was just too much. To train so much and stay so slow can turn you into a bit of a headcase. I got so frustrated I quit for 9 months, but as of last Monday I'm back.
It's not up for debate whether those years of high volume helped me — even after 9 months off, an easy run at around 9' pace still has me at a HR of ~140-150, and my body became very efficient with recovery. But I'm 6 feet tall, I've got pretty long legs, and it felt like my 9-10' easy pace was so physiologically different from 6-7' pace that nothing besides pure aerobic gains translated. Luckily, the aerobic gains are still there, even after almost a year of no running.
I'm tired of banging my head against the wall with high, uber-slow mileage. I think, at least for the summer, I'm going to stick to ~30 mpw max, not worry about workouts besides strides, and see if I can pick up the pace a bit. Does this make any sense from a training perspective, or would I be better served just sucking it up and getting back on the mileage grind? Would appreciate some perspective.
Some people lack talent.
I don't want to be rude but I really think this is OP's problem.
I (24, male, thin but never particularly athletic) started running relatively late (age 19) and from the jump I was focused on keeping easy runs easy and running as much mileage as possible. Within a year I was running 50 miles per week, and within another I was doing those 50 mpw with consistent, hard (but not too hard) workouts — usually a tempo and a track workout every week, a 90+ minute LR every Sunday, plus regular strides/hills. 50 mpw is high volume for a guy running 9+ minutes/mile, but I listened to my body and I never got injured.
My HR kept dropping, my workouts kept improving, and yet my race times never improved. After three years of (relatively) consistent training like this, my SB mile time worsened from 6:11 to 6:31 (both indoor, same track) and my 5k PR squeaked from ~22 minutes to 21:37. By September 2023 I was doubling 4x/week running 60 miles/9 hours of weekly volume and even though my body felt great it was just too much. To train so much and stay so slow can turn you into a bit of a headcase. I got so frustrated I quit for 9 months, but as of last Monday I'm back.
It's not up for debate whether those years of high volume helped me — even after 9 months off, an easy run at around 9' pace still has me at a HR of ~140-150, and my body became very efficient with recovery. But I'm 6 feet tall, I've got pretty long legs, and it felt like my 9-10' easy pace was so physiologically different from 6-7' pace that nothing besides pure aerobic gains translated. Luckily, the aerobic gains are still there, even after almost a year of no running.
I'm tired of banging my head against the wall with high, uber-slow mileage. I think, at least for the summer, I'm going to stick to ~30 mpw max, not worry about workouts besides strides, and see if I can pick up the pace a bit. Does this make any sense from a training perspective, or would I be better served just sucking it up and getting back on the mileage grind? Would appreciate some perspective.
Some people lack talent.
I'm not trying to break four or run in the NCAA. I want to break six minutes, a goal everyone on this board seems to agree is possible for pretty much any joe shmoe without serious physical conditions to stop them. Some goals are out of my reach, I accepted that long ago, but that doesn't mean I'm giving up on improvement altogether.
Thank you to everyone for the actionable advice. Feeling revitalized, excited to get back in the swing of things.
I'm not trying to break four or run in the NCAA. I want to break six minutes, a goal everyone on this board seems to agree is possible for pretty much any joe shmoe without serious physical conditions to stop them. Some goals are out of my reach, I accepted that long ago, but that doesn't mean I'm giving up on improvement altogether.
Thank you to everyone for the actionable advice. Feeling revitalized, excited to get back in the swing of things.
Exactly. All the people talking about no talent are guys who are not making a penny from running. Everyone here is a hobby jogger, except for maybe a few pros who visit the site.
Really like your attitude, best of luck in the future, I think you'll get there. Here's some more thoughts from a fellow hobbyjogger:
* Lots of people saying 9:00/mi easy pace is too slow...for someone whose 5k pace is 7:00 I don't think it is. Most of my easy runs are around there and mine is 6:00. Not that it should be slower but really I think easy run pace is not that relevant for developing race fitness. No matter how fast you make it it's so far away that you're really "training to train" with it. So just go out and run at an easy effort and let the pace fall where it may. Especially when adding more intense workouts
* If youve never done top end speed development, a little goes a long way. 10s all out sprints up a steep hill with full recovery helped me a ton, also in avoiding injury. Once or twice a week, start with just 2 and build up to 6
* I forget how much you said you did strides, but probably do more. Build up to 8x20" 3x a week
* Check out jack Daniels running formula, helped me a lot with workout design and intention. There are some general fitness plans (red, blue, gold) that might be worth a look if you want to step down the mileage and focus on speed.
* Post some workouts, that is a huge determinant in 1mi-5k time. You say they were progressing, but towards what? Better yet post a table with a few weeks of "normal" training for you
* Post some workouts, that is a huge determinant in 1mi-5k time. You say they were progressing, but towards what? Better yet post a table with a few weeks of "normal" training for you
Thanks for the encouragement! I've read Daniels several times, Pfitzinger and Malmo too, and I've really studied the training logs of Bill Rogers and Frank Shorter (which, looking back, might have been part of my problem haha. In reviewing my training logs, I'm not sure I wasn't working hard enough in workouts. If anything, I think I might have been buying in a bit too much to the "overtrain until it's not overtraining" philosophy. That being said, work could derail some weeks mileage-wise (I was a reporter at the time).
My last two races were a 3.5 miler on June 10 (26:01, HR avg 187) and a 4k XC race on September 2 (18:43, HR avg 173). Both pretty flat, but in central VA summer, so HOT and HUMID.
Three random workouts from the final few months: May 13, 2023: 3 mile [road] threshold in 23:10 (7:44/40/39), avg HR 175, 2 p.m. so 80 degrees and humid. Worth noting I ran a 3mile T basically every week, always 100% by feel, no watch. Got good at dialing in that "T" effort, always ended wishing I was allowed another mile.
June 1, 2023: This was ill advised, my buddy/then-coach was going through an Igloi phase. Felt strong, absolutely nailed the workout, but ruined the rest of my week. 800@M (4:03), 400j, 3x[400@10k/600@M] (1:48/51/50, 3:00/02/04), 400jg, 4x[300@5k/100jg] (1:21/20/18/18), 400jg, 3x[400@10k/600@M] (1:55/51/51, 3:05/14/13), 400jg, 800@M (3:57). Ran off feel, all jogs 9-10' pace. I was fit.
September 6, 2023: Coaching myself again by now. Hilly 3' on/3' float on dirt, avg ~7:30 "on" ~8:30 "float," 3.75 total in 30:10 (avg 8:02). Sort of a gimme day by this point.
Yeah idk I just find it hard to believe that going over 20-25 mpw is a good idea if you're young, thin, and can't run below 6:30. I feel like you just need to run harder first. What's your resting HR?
In all likelihood, you will improve markedly at every distance if you focus on 2-3 workouts per week and frequent strides. You're jogging all the time. You should have one day of hill sprints, a day of 150s or 10x400 or 8x600, and a day of broken tempo (3x1-1 1/2 miles at 7:45 pace) or threshold intervals (400s to 1k's) at 8 minute down to 7 minute pace.
In all likelihood, you will improve markedly at every distance if you focus on 2-3 workouts per week and frequent strides. You're jogging all the time. You should have one day of hill sprints, a day of 150s or 10x400 or 8x600, and a day of broken tempo (3x1-1 1/2 miles at 7:45 pace) or threshold intervals (400s to 1k's) at 8 minute down to 7 minute pace.
The consensus seems to be that I don't need to be consciously speeding up my easy days, just doing less jogging/slogging and more fastish stuff for now -- that makes a lot of sense to me. That's what I meant when I said it felt like the 9 minute miles weren't translating -- to run that much at my level of fitness meant ~8 hours/week of pure jogging, which muscularly and neurologically just didn't feel like it was translating to faster running.
I've run 8 of the last 10 days, doing walk/jog intervals with a non-GPS stopwatch. Don't plan on picking the GPS watch back up for a little while. Yesterday was my first continuous run back, ~30 minutes comfortably. It was hot and muggy but I felt fine and I felt like I was running rather than shuffling, which was nice. I've reintroduced strides now, too.
My plan is to (very) slowly work back up to running 30-45' easy 4-6x per week, aiming to do strides (flat + hills) on at least 3 of those days. Once I've been there comfortably for a few weeks, I'll start introducing 1 real workout a week. 3 per week feels absolutely doable given my ability to recover, but that's going to be an "end-of-the-summer" goal at the earliest. If I start doing "long runs" during this period, I think I'll cap them at 70 minutes tops, at least for the summer. Gonna try and do a bit more core + basic strength work, too.
To be clear, I fully intend on returning to high mileage eventually. I enjoy it (when it doesn't feel like beating my head against a wall), and I think I'm well suited for it, but I think I'll get more out of it when I'm a more well-rounded runner.
Think I'll log a bit about the progress here, if only to prove I wasn't BSing about the whole "training like crazy but can't break 20" thing. 16 miles last week in 5 runs, just working easily back into things. 3/5 were in run/walk intervals. Mon & Thurs included 4 strides each, Sat had 4x hill strides. Saturday especially felt great. This is the least sore I've ever been two weeks into training -- my omnipresent low-level shin splints are nowhere to be seen. Neat!
M - 3 (in 4'/1' intervals)
T - 0
W - 3
Th - 4 (3'/1')
F - 2
Sa - 4 (4'/1')
Su - 0 (family obligations)
Not using GPS, but I know the distance of the loops I'm running. Based on that, it seems like I'm running ~8:15 pace for the "run" intervals (I'm averaging right around 9' pace for the overall runs). It feels physically very easy and my form already feels stronger than it has in years. Lungs still adjusting to running at all, but another few weeks of run/walks and slowly bumping my overall volume and I predict that will pass.