Value of high mileage when you're (really) slow

How is it even possible to do 50 mpw for an entire year and run over 20 min 5k?

It sounds like you mostly need to improve your racing. If your training continues to improve and you're clearly fitter, but your race times are getting worse, then you might need to consider how you race.

I also don't think it's the worst thing in the world for a younger guy with only a couple years of training to be running a bit faster on easy runs, and doing a bit more high-intensity VO2max work than usual. Not to mention, it's important to enjoy your training. You might want to check out easy-interval training, the Klaas Lok method. Kind of like double threshold, the idea is doing lots of relaxed intervals instead of slogging easy runs. Not really more effective than traditional training for most people, but it can be more fun and for certain runners it seems to work really well.

This was my thought, too, and I focused hard on my racing skills. Got pretty good at staying fast but controlled throughout the first half, then going so hard I was seeing ghosts by the last lap of a mile/last .5 of a 5k, on my hands and knees puking at every finish line. Alas, it was still a 6:31 mile haha.

What are your times for 100m, 200 and 400?

That's my question.

It was more like consistent 40-55 mpw, but still. My best guess is that I was overtrained, even if I didn't feel overtrained or get hurt, but I'm not positive that's correct.

I'm 6 feet tall and my weight hovers between 150 and 160. No history of health problems, I can do 5 pullups and 20+ pushups in a go. Core could use some work, but whose couldn't? I'm at a loss for the missing link.

Only raced one 400, it was in 2020 and in trainers but I ran a 71. Best 200 was closing a long workout in 2021, also in trainers -- 33. When I'm doing them regularly my 100m strides often get down to 16-17 or so.

I can look at your situation in two different ways, maybe even two and a half different ways. The first is that 50 miles a week is not remotely high mileage on the overall mileage food chain. Yes, it's more than most of today's runners do but it just may not be enough to improve you as much as you hope. I needed to run much more than 50 a week to make major improvements. I also wonder why you're running 9-10 minute pace. Maybe you need to go faster most of the time.

The other thing that strikes me is that your workout times are improving. That means you're getting fitter UNLESS you're really pushing yourself so hard getting those workouts to improve that you're racing your training and not having much left when you race. But if that was the case your workouts would stop improving eventually too. So I think your problem might be that you're doing something wrong in your races, though from what you've said I can't even guess what it would be.

So should you push your mileage up even beyond the 60 you'd tried and really work hard or just do 30 or so and enjoy your runs? It depends on what you want. In your place, I'd probably work on getting well above that 60 because I liked running high mileage and because I'd be curious to see what would happen if I did a lot of miles. But if I didn't see satisfactory results after I'd given high miles a fair chance I'd drop back to a volume that was less work and took up less time. If you're kind of dreading working back to 50 plus, if you think it won't do what you want in terms of performance and could eventually make you want to stop running, then just do the 30 mile weeks you're considering. In the long term you'll be faster running 30 mile weeks year round than you'd be with a few weeks or months at 50 plus then quitting running at all for weeks or months.

31M here. I run about 20-25mpw or about 4 hours per week.

Started in 2021 and am not particularly talented.
Ran 44:30 for 10k last week and have similar PRs to you for the mile/5k.

I run easy 6:45-7:00/k or around 11 min miles (mostly due to humid weather). Steady pace is 6:15/k or so on longer runs or close to 10 min miles. I don't think the slow easy mileage is harming you as long as you mix it up on the workout days.

Tempo/high-end aerobic pace/moderately hard is around 5:00/k or 8 min miles while I do some harder stuff at or above threshold around 4:30/k, and then some shorter faster stuff (100s, 200s) around 3:30-4:00/k with longer rest. Nothing puking hard, I just save the hard "vo2max" stuff for races/time trials.

If you're already doing something similar to the above, perhaps see a doctor if you have any possible deficiencies?

I've seen similar cases with slower high school students who hear that high mileage is the key to being fast. I know a guy who never broke 17 minutes in the 5k but was running 70+ mpw. The reality is that high mileage is only one puzzle piece. If speed and workouts don't grow with the mileage, the extra mileage is a waste of time in my opinion.

It would be helpful to hear more about your hill and track sessions. You could probably benefit from some kind of 200m repeat workout to get you more used to speed. Also cutting back on the mileage will likely not hurt your race times with your current speed. At your current fitness I would recommend no more than 60 minutes for your easy runs, and honestly I would target 45 minutes.

Were you able to track your HR during your 5k? The reason why I ask is some runners get so accustomed to easy running, that truly going to 10/10 on effort scale is so foreign to them they don't realize how difficult it can be. Especially in a 5k. And that can be very hard for someone without a running background to understand. Because you feel like you're working hard! But all out racing is just a different level physically. I don't know if this is the answer, but HR data might indicate how much room you actually have to RACE faster, not just be fitter.

My first guess after reading this (and seeing you mention your weight fluctuate between 150 and 160) is that your nutrition is wack and you're not eating enough or well enough to recover or fuel your runs. Have you ever tracked your food intake over time to make sure you're eating enough carbs and protein, plus all your micronutrients? A blood test would be good as well - iron deficiency is less common in men but not that rare and has a big impact on performance. At your age it's less about making sure you're eating 100% healthy foods and more about making sure you're eating a relatively consistent (and sufficient) number of calories every day.

Another thing that may be helpful is spending some time working on your shorter events (800/mile) to get more comfortable with fast speeds that will hopefully translate up to longer stuff.

I'd split the difference and aim for 40 mpw. You can start at 30 and build up. You can probably run faster on easy days than you do, so focus on that. I'd also see what you're doing nutritionally. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to run faster. I think you just lulled yourself into a routine of running slow without enough recovery to build strength and naturally get faster.

In summary: yes, a 30 mpw plan sounds like a "not bad" idea. However, I would encourage you to get in at least one good interval workout per week where the intervals are no longer than 800m since you need to develop speed. Here are some ideas:

200-400-800-400-200 pyramid sets (goal would be 2 sets though starting with 1 is fine) with a half interval shuffle recovery (eg. 200m recovery after a 400). I like this workout because you end with a shorter faster interval so your body remembers going faster. Can take a short rest in between sets

8x200m sets with half interval shuffle recovery. At least 2 sets

400m lane workout. Do 400m repeats starting and ending at the track's finish line but move out one lane after each repeat. Obviously the pace should be slower than normal for the inside lane 400. If you still have energy, work your way back down to the inside lane after you get to the outside. This second set can get faster as it will get progressively shorter.

Hill sprints. I particularly enjoy hill chasers. This workout requires a training partner. One person starts 5-10 meters up the slope and runs a strong but slower pace. The chaser's goal is to pass them by the crest of the hill surging over the top. Switch roles every repeat

You need to get experience running fast op. The best thing would probably be to find a coach or join a coached running club. Barring that, you want to do like 1-2 miles time trial over a course you'll repeat often during your training. Try to push yourself so that you run this course faster than the last time you did it. You can do this 1-2 times a week as the last mile of tempos or workouts before cooling down or even after an easy run. It'll do more for you on 60 mpw than 30, but you might improve either way.

You could also try some low key track meets or time trialing (like 2 miles, 5k track time trials) and focus on your pace. Improvements probably won't come fast, they only do for those who are very talented.

how do you expect to do fast mid-distance by training to do slow long-distance?

the basic blindspot with a lot of the mileage-pimps on here is they probably came in doing 4:10 or 4:20 miles. so they have natural foot speed. which they then pair up with distance work on endurance. that tries to help the natural foot speed with less getting tired in the race.

you take someone with a slower 6 minute mile and have them do mileage and they'd never gotten the natural foot speed, and while they might not get tired much, you went right past their weakness. you need speed work.

personally as someone who ran sprints and hurdles but sometimes dabbled in XC, i think the sheer mileage approach is overrated unless you are competing out near that distance. i don't think you need 70 mi/wk to run a single competitive mile. that strikes me as massive overkill and something maybe a handful of elite pros in the world need. you want lively legs and IMO anything past about 30 would take away my top gear. your mileage may vary. consider your own biology. when do you feel race-y? my guess is you're past the point of payoff. well past it.

so my suggestion is either match your race length to your prep work, or do my speed work and less mileage if you're gonna be a 1-3 miler.

This. I had a similar experience and stagnated at high mileage for a while until I started *regularly* running workouts faster. Like the poster above suggested, just start with small, short repeats at faster paces. Nothing crazy. 8x200m or 8x30 seconds at 5:45-6:00 mile pace. Do it once a week, week in and week out. The neuromuscular adaptations and strength at these faster speeds will help. Once you adapt to those and stop feeling sore after the 200m or 30s reps, aim for 4-6x 400m or 60s reps. Long slow mileage does not make runners "faster," only more enduring (and thus able to maintain faster paces for longer).

Took me around 4 years as a healthy teenager at the same volume. Between 8 and 10k miles between the ages of 13 and 17 before I broke 20. During that time was 6'1"-6'4" and no heavier than 170lbs.

How is it even possible that so many people don't understand the concept of genetic limits?

OK, you're at a 6:30 mile which you consider slow. Relative to that a 5:30 would feel fantastic, let's go.

You need about 8 weeks of speed work. Once per week do a warm up, some easy plyos, and then 4-6 flying 20s. Mark the zone and smash the entrance and exit, tall and humming through relaxed, but absolute top speed. Use 25m to smoothly accelerate to the zone. Aim for 6, but stop if coordination and speed starts to falter. Rest a full 3 minutes between reps. Next, rest 10 minutes and then do 3-5 150s, smooth and humming through the whole way. Time these and track progress week to week.

On a second day a more speed endurance type workout. Switch between these two. 1) 3x3x300m, 60 seconds rest between reps and 5 minutes between the sets. Take a pace that can be held for all reps. That's probably 64 secs right now. Work them down to 55. 2) 200s on the minute. 3x4x200m. Run 200m, say in 42 seconds, rest up to the minute, 18 secs in this example, then hit another, and another, for 4 reps. Rest 4 minutes, then do another 4 reps, repeat three times. Use a pace that you can hold for all reps. Work them down to 38 or better.

After 8 weeks, test your 400 and 800. Hopefully you'll see indications of better ability. Then taper a little a hit your mile TT.