Slowest 800 time to break 3:30 for 1500?

Mo Farah closed the last 800m of the 2015 WC 5k in 1:48 to win. I think he could run an open in 1:46.xx no doubt when he ran 3:28 in 2013.

While he never really focused on the 800m later in his career, he ran that 12:53 in 2011 with a fast close. He never went after a fast 5k after that. If you stuck him in the DL last year with super spikes, he could have ran 12:40-12:42 with the Ethiopians/Ugandans.

Stewy is the one who sticks out to the most. Seems like he'd only be able to run 1:48.xx, but I also think he has some time to chop off in the 5k (12:58), more like upper 12:40's.

^12:56

You want to know why El G never raced 800's? Think about this...

1) He was a tiny. Think about him compared to some of the top 800 guys of that era - Bucher, Schumann, Longo and even Borzakovskiy who wasn't massive, but knew how to use his body very "effectively" in races. Why is this relevant?....

2) Atlanta 1996. We all should know what happened there and because of that Hicham was terrified of running in the pack/being surrounded by guys - in an elite 800m guys are/were going out in 49.5-50.0 seconds he was never going to be at the front of that type of race. So now he finds himself running in the most physical event in the entire sport when he's already traumatized and terrifed of getting jostled/tripped? Never going to happen.

3) "Why not run a smaller meet then where he could be at the front and out of trouble?" Money. Energy. As in, the guy was making so much $$$ per start to run the 1500m or the mile at the Golden League level, he was never going to just run an 800 there, or waste energy in season travelling to Rovereto for an 800m race where he might get paid 5000 euros to show up (because thats all the meet can afford). These guys were under contract with meets like Zurich, Rome, Brussels etc to run their preferred events over multiple seasons - like Jakob is now for example with Lausanne (just one meet example). So you are obliged to run 6-8 1500m/miles a year + a random 2/3k + a major championship - the 800 is well on the back burner.

So what do you do if you want to "tune-up before a major championship? Do it behind a locked stadium gate in Ifrane with one of your pacemaking crews. Get the exact pace you want and with zero threat of eating the track or taking a stray elbow. And that's exactly what he did.

What you're find it hard to do is read and comprehend. That Ovett did not focus on 800 compare to longer distances is what I wrote.

And he wasn't fast, no matter how many little champs he entered. He would not have broken 1:43 even if he did 800 full time.

Ovett is believed to have run below 22 for the 200 and 47x for the 400 (same as Cruz). That isn't slow. He was also faster than Cram who went sub-1:43.

Excellent point regarding the physicality of the 800m as a race and how that would play into El Guerrouj's history. I don't believe any other poster has brought it up before, and I'm now hitting myself on the head for not having thought of it sooner as it makes so much sense.

Ovett was 8th fastest all time when he ran his 1:44.09 pb. The World Record at the time was Juantorena 1:43.50.

He was very fast young fella.

so you are saying he will run faster pace in a 2 mile than a 3000m? weird

…

This is the relevant point. Farah CLOSED a 5k with 56 + 52 (1:48,x). 1:46/47 ability is needed for sub 3:30 as bare minimum, regardless how much endurance someone has.

I don't think Farah is a good baseline though, his endurance was never on the level of Geb, Komen, Bekele, etc. He was always more a 1500 man that had the mind for 5k/10k and won tactical races, like Lagat or Jakob. That's why I see Geb (1:49/3:31) or Komen (3:29/7:20) as much better baselines for a potential 1:48/3:29 man.

I feel like I go back and forth on Farah having that kind of endurance. I know when he got tested in a fast race, he ran 26:49 closing in 55 (13:36/13:13 splits, last 1600 in 4:05). I looked at Fisher's 26:33 splits for comparison, and they did 13:23/13:10, 58 last lap, 4:06 last 1600. Given that Farah did it in a championship race (heat, worse pacing, taking the lead and trying to slow it down multiple times, etc), I feel like he could've run 26:20s in a time trial.

But I do like the Jakob comparison for him a lot, particularly because of his 1500m time. 3:28 for a 5k/10k guy is crazy, but if it's really just a 1500/5k guy moving up, it's not as surprising. I remember Jakob opening up in ~13:02 at a SoundRunning meet and saying he hadn't done any track work yet (just threshold and hills I guess). I feel like he could run sub-27 pretty easy, maybe even without specific training for it since he's been doing so much mileage for so long. Farah probably was a 1:46 guy at his best, and since Jakob has run close to 2s faster over 1500, Jakob is probably worth closer to 1:44.7-1:45.3.

Komen might be the best to look at what it takes to run sub-3:29. He was probably the most pure 3k/5k runner (besides maybe Jakob) of the bunch, and he managed a 3:29. I'd probably liken Nico more to him than anyone else now I think about it tbh.

Really interesting take that he never raced 800s because he was so small. Is Atlanta 96 the one where he tripped? I feel like Hicham being at the back of the pack in an elite 800 would be less worrying for him. He'd have probably 600m where he could just hang off the back of the pack and not have to worry about anyone. Plus they start in lanes so he wouldn't need to worry about getting jostled at the start.

I don't know much about how money worked in the sport back then, but he was SO good, could he really not get one of the meets he ran at to let him do an 800 instead? Honestly, if I was a meet director, I'd want him to run a different event to make him stand out. But maybe everyone just wanted him to run mile after mile back then idk.

That 26:49 was very close to his peak ability, even in a time trial. To run 26:20s, he would've had to have the same second half, off of a 20-second faster first half. Not happening. A negative split is ideal for the 10k anyway, and he could close his 55 because of his lactate tolerance and raw speed, not necessarily because he had too much left to give. 26:40 with 13:25/13:15 splits and a 57-58 close would be a generous estimate of his 10k TT ability. He had nowhere near the endurance of Cheptegei, Geb, Bekele, Kipruto, Tergat etc.

lmaoooooo I just looked and Bekele ran 26:49 in 2003 and he closed in 54 and 12:57

Mo Farah more like Slow Farah

I think you are correct on Farah. It's a shame he never went for it time-wise, but his best events to run very fast in was the 3000 it seems.

I don't think it need be as linear as you have it though. Just because Girma or Komen have superior 3,000 marks to McSweyn let's say, it doesn't 100% guarantee to me that they need be slower at the 800. Definitely a possibility, but I think the answer to this question is going to be someone who gets everything out of their natural speed to run 3:30 vs. someone who is a 5K/10K guys who's dabbled in the 1500. I understand that is a very debatable stance.

Well the Atlanta '96 1500m final is maybe the most famous "trip" in MD history (or second to Mary Slaney depending on your inclination).

And with all due respect, the "back of the pack" doesn't really change anything for him - he famously caught the back of Morceli's heel when he fell so he really only like running at the front/behind a pacer where he knew exactly what the pacer was doing. Plus he was much better over 800m than people think (as I've tried endlessly to explain) so he was looking at 50.high, low 51 which isn't really the back of the pack of an elite 800, it's right in the middle of the action. As for the start? Yeah there is no jostling right at the start when the gun goes but have you run an 800m/watched even a good level 800m and seen what happens after the break line? You have 8-10 guys hitting the cones and then basically wanting the same spot as they all make a beeline for the 200m mark - that is arguably the most physical 100m of running in the sport.

The money worked the same then as it does now. El G for example would have been on a guaranteed retainer for big meets - so for example in Zurich he might have been on a 200k/4 year deal as a base just to show up with then his prize money and maybe a performance bonus as well. But the meet then wants it's return and there is more of that when they can bill a WR shot and have him run in the 3.26's than if he runs an 800 and finishes 5th or 6th. As for "different events" - well that was your 2000m/3000m which he messed with later in his career. You also have to understand the sport worked slightly different back then - there was no big "Golden League" final that you qualified for. There was the Grand Prix final but it wasn't really a big deal for a lot of the top guys.

The real money was in the Golden League "jackpot" and you basically needed to win your event at every meeting or one year they changed it to 5/7 minimum or something like that. Hicham won this 4 times and it was splitting 1 million bucks/20kg of gold which was approximately a one million dollar pot. Simply put, zero incentive for him to not run his preferred event at the major meetings.

But it ultimately came down to him not wanting to get bumped around in the physicality of an elite 800m - I know this first hand from guys that had trained with him/spoken with him on exactly this topic. As I said, he had a crew of basically borderline world class development athletes as his pacemaking team that could set him up for any workout/timetrial he wanted so why even take the risk? He didn't.

He was no smaller than Coe.

A guy who can split sub-27 in the last 200 of a 26:46 and close a championship 26:49 in 2:28 will crush 26:40 in a time trial. Raw speed means nothing if you lack the strength to use it.