Did Steve Cram know that Berkane the hometown of El Guerrouj is known as the city of males?
Think of this as a version "American John Wayn" X 10
This small town beat today the evil Algerian regime and because there is another "super male" from Berkane called Faouzi Lakjaa that is doing miracles to the Moroccan soccer.
The Royal Moroccan Football Federation (FRMF) has confirmed receiving today a copy of the Confederation of African Football (CAF) regarding the match between USM Alger and RS Berkane.
My main point however is this: Coe, Ovett and Cram should have run mid or low 3.28 to catch up with their 800m ability! -It’s a paradox that these guys who mainly defined themself as 1500m runners were so much slower than Jakob, despite their advantage in the 800m..! And it’s a paradox when he is being criticised for bad 800m training when his times in the 1500m are so much better than the brits’..! Saying that, I won’t take away the fact that Coe and Cram eventually bettered Walker’s times significantly. But I’m puzzled why they didn’t run faster, and more consistently fast in the 1500m, and I think a lack of strength may have been a factor…
All fun discussion and just opinion.
But I guess this where I can't quite join the dots. Sure if we catapult those guys into the year 2022 and they look around at the reality of the MD landscape they probably realize in order to be the best guys they need to train differently. But again it depends what your goals are? Let's assume Cram is in the same crop of Brits as Wightman and Kerr and has aspirations of the WR like Jakob might/does - like he's going to figure it out right? Maybe he doesn't get to 1.42.88 because he sacrifices what work he did to achieve that and focuses on trying to run under 7.30 for 3000m? Who knows? What I am sure of is that the consensus train of thought in that era was that the best way to run a fast 1500 was to also be fast over 800m and to try and have as much of a gap between your 800m PR and what you wanted to go through in a 1500/mile (as much as 10 seconds!!!!). That seems crazy now because we know that with the right training a more optimal differential with respect to the entire race can be as low as 5 or 6 seconds and with the right training focus it's the most effective.
I also don't see anyone criticizing his 800m training, I really don't. And to answer your question, the reason they didn't run faster was as exactly as you pointed out and is quite obvious yes, it was a lack of strength. If you asked Cram why he didn't/couldn't run 3.27.0 I'm sure it's the first answer he would give you.
Really having a hard time understanding Cram's logic. Jakob came less than a second away from the mile WR and was only 1.14 seconds off the 1500 WR. He ran his two mile splits in 4:00 and 3:53. He 100% has the speed to take down those WRs and pretending otherwise is absurd.
My main point however is this: Coe, Ovett and Cram should have run mid or low 3.28 to catch up with their 800m ability! -It’s a paradox that these guys who mainly defined themself as 1500m runners were so much slower than Jakob, despite their advantage in the 800m..! And it’s a paradox when he is being criticised for bad 800m training when his times in the 1500m are so much better than the brits’..! Saying that, I won’t take away the fact that Coe and Cram eventually bettered Walker’s times significantly. But I’m puzzled why they didn’t run faster, and more consistently fast in the 1500m, and I think a lack of strength may have been a factor…
All fun discussion and just opinion.
But I guess this where I can't quite join the dots. Sure if we catapult those guys into the year 2022 and they look around at the reality of the MD landscape they probably realize in order to be the best guys they need to train differently. But again it depends what your goals are? Let's assume Cram is in the same crop of Brits as Wightman and Kerr and has aspirations of the WR like Jakob might/does - like he's going to figure it out right? Maybe he doesn't get to 1.42.88 because he sacrifices what work he did to achieve that and focuses on trying to run under 7.30 for 3000m? Who knows? What I am sure of is that the consensus train of thought in that era was that the best way to run a fast 1500 was to also be fast over 800m and to try and have as much of a gap between your 800m PR and what you wanted to go through in a 1500/mile (as much as 10 seconds!!!!). That seems crazy now because we know that with the right training a more optimal differential with respect to the entire race can be as low as 5 or 6 seconds and with the right training focus it's the most effective.
I also don't see anyone criticizing his 800m training, I really don't. And to answer your question, the reason they didn't run faster was as exactly as you pointed out and is quite obvious yes, it was a lack of strength. If you asked Cram why he didn't/couldn't run 3.27.0 I'm sure it's the first answer he would give you.
Hard to say that Ovett lacked strength. He probably had more distance ability than any other 800m Olympic Champion.
It's hard to talk about Ovett, Coe and Cram as a unit since they had different physiologies, and strengths. There is no way that Ovett could have got close to Coe's world-record at 800m, and no way Coe would have had a shot at Ovett over longer distances (note his 2 mile win over Henry Rono; his win over Steve Jones in the Inter-Counties X-Country at 7 1/2 miles).
Ovett was never interested in records until his fellow countryman, Coe started breaking them and was absolutely far more interested in winning than running fast times.
I think rather than being an 800m runner whose speed was blunted by endurance training, Ovett moved to that mode knowing that eventually his future lay over distance above 800m (he won the English Schools X-Country Championship for example). He was flirting with 5000m as early as age 21, finishing second to Yifter with all of Britain's best 5000m runners (other than Foster) behind him.
I'd also say that training and particularly pacing for Ovett and Coe would have been focused on being just around or very slightly faster than the existing record, not some time two or three seconds quicker.
Both probably would have run faster had it not been for injury and illness (fall on the railings and Los Angeles for Ovett, toxoplasmosis for Coe).
I'd also say that you'd have to allow something in the way of advances in the tracks and shoes in the 40 odd years since Coe and Ovett were at their peak.
Jakob lost both WC 1500 meters by .25 seconds and is about a second off of the 1500m record. What change in training will allow him to find the 1 second needed to set WRs in the 1500m/mile and to win in the Olympic and WC 1500m championships?
All of the Brits from his era were 800/1500m guys so what insight would Cram have for 1500/5000m training?
Probably 1500 only training would be better suited for championship style 1500m races rather than 5k training.
If Jakob could run 46-47 wouldn't a 1:49 split be much more feasible?
Jakob could never get near 46-47. If he could he would be running 1:42-43. I doubt he could run a 400 much faster than 50-flat (incidentally, about the same as Elliott, who ran 1:46x for the 800 on sh*ttier tracks).
You firstly have to assume that a "clean" runner (El G) is able to set a world record by running faster than any doped runner (who had access to EPO, for which there was then no effective test) in his era or in the 25 years since. So the record has to be doped.
Secondly, you must conclude that doping has no significant effect if a clean runner is able to run faster than the best doped runners, some of whom will be the most talented in their era.
You have done no research on the subject but merely express wishful thinking.
Do you understand what you've said here? Everyone would take "the field" vs. a single athlete in any race, if there are no odds, and the event is 3 months away.
Did your teachers have to tell you to sit down a lot in elementary?
Too focused on the 5000: Has only run 4 5000’s the last 3 years. His age may be catching up with his logical decline.
Not really what is being said here. Jakob's training is for a guy who would be extremely competitive at 5k to half marathon. If Jakob announced that he wants to break the half marathon record then no one would bat an eye probably. This is of course not an issue with 5k and up, but the point is it comes at a trade-off of top end speed. I don't agree/disagree with Cram's statement though
I think Hassan has disproven the theory that one can't be great at middle distance and long distance on the roads. Jakob is already really close to the WR as it is. I don't know what Cram is thinking here.
Really having a hard time understanding Cram's logic. Jakob came less than a second away from the mile WR and was only 1.14 seconds off the 1500 WR. He ran his two mile splits in 4:00 and 3:53. He 100% has the speed to take down those WRs and pretending otherwise is absurd.
You firstly have to assume that a "clean" runner (El G) is able to set a world record by running faster than any doped runner (who had access to EPO, for which there was then no effective test) in his era or in the 25 years since. So the record has to be doped.
Secondly, you must conclude that doping has no significant effect if a clean runner is able to run faster than the best doped runners, some of whom will be the most talented in their era.
You have done no research on the subject but merely express wishful thinking.
Imagine clean, what if... nonsense.
Such argumentations are not valid
That El G or any top runner is clean today is fantasy.
You're comparing runners 40 years apart. Cram had two records Jakob doesn't - and may never have.
Cram’s records were relatively weak, and didn’t stay for long. I myself watched Ovett, Coe and Cram many times live, and I’m not impressed over what they accomplished in the 1500m / mile -very weak results compared to the athletes before them (Walker, Bayi and especially Herb Elliott) and after (Morcelli, El Guerrouj). Yes, these three brits ran (despite their good 800m pb’s) so poorly that I a couple of months ago rewatched most of their races to find out why… My conclusion was as follows:
1. Steve Ovett seemed to lack talent for mid distance (or he trained wrongly), physically, psychologically and strategically (although he looked lean, had a good stride and very good field positioning ability) -he just ran slow. But I think he might have had a talent in the 3/5k, if he had tried this earlier, before injuries…
2. Seb Coe: For a long time he sliced tens of a second (around 3.32) of the WR along with Ovett. -Very poor running compared to Herb Elliott’s 3.35.6 (that is worth sub 3.30 -modern shoes / tracks / pacing). But Coe had clearly a capacity Ovett lacked; he just had to run his first lap more conservatively to get his two only good times (3.47 / 3.29). To me neither Coe was a good 1500m runner -as an all time great he is rescued by his 1.41 and 2.12).
3. Steve Cram -I’m not impressed. And I find it a little strange that he gives advices to a so much better runner (Jakob). But also Cram is sort of rescued by his 800m pb (1.42.8). Saying that, he is clearly the best of the three mentioned brits, mostly because of the potential he showed in his Bislett mile WR (could maybe have done a 1.44 high). Sad he hadn’t Jakob to learn from at the time -don’t care about the competition (Coe). Concentrate on running decent and fast…
Yes, it’s forty years ago. But Jakob is close to much better WR’s… Since the last interview with Cram Jakob has become Olympic champ, broken three WR’s, scared the mile WR and 3000m WR, and is back to back W champ in the 5000m (in a season of sickness and injuries). 22 years old at the time. -Should he change his training after this? To a training that did so little for the brits? (Except Kerr and Wightman who first became decent elite after increasing their endurance). Because of what a lot of “experts” are saying in interviews and on the LRC forum? Without knowing how he trains or what his real 800m time is / can be?
Definitely the single most absurd post I've seen on this board. You're not impressed with Cram running 1:42 and 3:29? If he was around today running those times Jakob would be sh1t scared of him. It doesn't matter that he's run a 3:27 because you're going to get eaten up in a championship race if someone is in 1:42 shape.
And Coe's 1:41 didn't impress you either? Big lol. He was such a terrible middle distance runner he only ever won two Olympic golds. Let me guess... they don't count because of boycotts.
But the worst of the lot is Ovett being a 5k runner who "lacked talent" for mid d running.
Cram’s records were relatively weak, and didn’t stay for long. I myself watched Ovett, Coe and Cram many times live, and I’m not impressed over what they accomplished in the 1500m / mile -very weak results compared to the athletes before them (Walker, Bayi and especially Herb Elliott) and after (Morcelli, El Guerrouj). Yes, these three brits ran (despite their good 800m pb’s) so poorly that I a couple of months ago rewatched most of their races to find out why… My conclusion was as follows:
1. Steve Ovett seemed to lack talent for mid distance (or he trained wrongly), physically, psychologically and strategically (although he looked lean, had a good stride and very good field positioning ability) -he just ran slow. But I think he might have had a talent in the 3/5k, if he had tried this earlier, before injuries…
2. Seb Coe: For a long time he sliced tens of a second (around 3.32) of the WR along with Ovett. -Very poor running compared to Herb Elliott’s 3.35.6 (that is worth sub 3.30 -modern shoes / tracks / pacing). But Coe had clearly a capacity Ovett lacked; he just had to run his first lap more conservatively to get his two only good times (3.47 / 3.29). To me neither Coe was a good 1500m runner -as an all time great he is rescued by his 1.41 and 2.12).
3. Steve Cram -I’m not impressed. And I find it a little strange that he gives advices to a so much better runner (Jakob). But also Cram is sort of rescued by his 800m pb (1.42.8). Saying that, he is clearly the best of the three mentioned brits, mostly because of the potential he showed in his Bislett mile WR (could maybe have done a 1.44 high). Sad he hadn’t Jakob to learn from at the time -don’t care about the competition (Coe). Concentrate on running decent and fast…
Yes, it’s forty years ago. But Jakob is close to much better WR’s… Since the last interview with Cram Jakob has become Olympic champ, broken three WR’s, scared the mile WR and 3000m WR, and is back to back W champ in the 5000m (in a season of sickness and injuries). 22 years old at the time. -Should he change his training after this? To a training that did so little for the brits? (Except Kerr and Wightman who first became decent elite after increasing their endurance). Because of what a lot of “experts” are saying in interviews and on the LRC forum? Without knowing how he trains or what his real 800m time is / can be?
Definitely the single most absurd post I've seen on this board. You're not impressed with Cram running 1:42 and 3:29? If he was around today running those times Jakob would be sh1t scared of him. It doesn't matter that he's run a 3:27 because you're going to get eaten up in a championship race if someone is in 1:42 shape.
And Coe's 1:41 didn't impress you either? Big lol. He was such a terrible middle distance runner he only ever won two Olympic golds. Let me guess... they don't count because of boycotts.
But the worst of the lot is Ovett being a 5k runner who "lacked talent" for mid d running.
You, sir, are an imbecile.
His bias towards present-day Norwegians has affected his thinking.
You firstly have to assume that a "clean" runner (El G) is able to set a world record by running faster than any doped runner (who had access to EPO, for which there was then no effective test) in his era or in the 25 years since. So the record has to be doped.
Secondly, you must conclude that doping has no significant effect if a clean runner is able to run faster than the best doped runners, some of whom will be the most talented in their era.
You have done no research on the subject but merely express wishful thinking.
I've never set foot on a track, but isn't it about having a 'change of pace' as much as having 800m speed? Ovett used to specifically train for his kick, and Coe famously trained to have three different 'gears'.
Well, I guess this applies more to Jakob winning 1500m finals than breaking the world record.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
I've never set foot on a track, but isn't it about having a 'change of pace' as much as having 800m speed? Ovett used to specifically train for his kick, and Coe famously trained to have three different 'gears'.
Well, I guess this applies more to Jakob winning 1500m finals than breaking the world record.
I've never set foot on a track, but isn't it about having a 'change of pace' as much as having 800m speed? Ovett used to specifically train for his kick, and Coe famously trained to have three different 'gears'.
Well, I guess this applies more to Jakob winning 1500m finals than breaking the world record.
Why do you visit this place then?
I'd agree. What made Ovett so devastating in many of his races was his explosive acceleration rather than the absolute speed (although he was very quick for a 1500m runner, but a strength 800m runner). Coe, as you say, practiced the ability to kick off an already fast pace.
With Jakob, I think what's missed is that in a championship 1500m, he's inevitably going to be vulnerable to a runner who is with 2-3 seconds of him on best time, but has a kick, as Jakob isn't going to run up to his PR solo and under the pressure of someone sat on him. Over 5000m the situation changes, as Jakob is the fastest 1500m guy in the race and can ride and make a long run for hom.
