So we are comparing a 2023 AF+Herriman vs 2021 NP?
NP still absolutely smokes them. Colin, leo and lex still go 1-2-3. Simmons sneaks in for 4th. Aaron takes 5th. And Then Appleford runs with the 3-4-5 runners of the combined team and possible beats some of them.
2021 had 4 of the 10 best runners in the country on one team, the only similar team ever was the 2004 saratoga girls, and comparatively, NP had a way better 5th.
Wait so, was the consensus on here 2021 Newbury Park being stronger than 2022? I'm actually not sure so let's settle that first
They had Colin Sahlman still, so, yeah
The Young’s also didn’t way under perform at nationals. That 2021 team would have had a chance to beat the rest of the country in a dual meet… To bad they never got to run in national championship.
And none of that takes away at how good the Utah schools are.
17 to 39. Even if Simmons and Jaster had performed in XC like they did at Arcadia, NP still would have dunked on them.
No team will ever be as good as 2021 Newbury Park.
The likelyhood of two of the most talented guys in the country, both going to the same school, at the same time, and both having a younger brother born within one year/hour of themselves is just incredible.
17 to 39. Even if Simmons and Jaster had performed in XC like they did at Arcadia, NP still would have dunked on them.
No team will ever be as good as 2021 Newbury Park.
The likelyhood of two of the most talented guys in the country, both going to the same school, at the same time, and both having a younger brother born within one year/hour of themselves is just incredible.
You're a clown for not looking at the Arcadia results. These teams aren't even the same as they were during Cross Country. Simmons could beat Sahlman and the Youngs easy. Especially if the course was Runninglane. Ben Jaster was 5th at Arcadia and ran 8:38, he would be up there too. Evans ran 8:46. Steadman, Hofheins, Beckstrom, and Bradshaw all run under 9 as well. All these guys would be in front of Appleford as he never broke 9. This means that they would put a 6 and 7 in front of Newbury Park's 5. Don't think it wouldn't be close because it would.
NP always showed up and ran consistently great. AF and Herriman are inconsistent at best on the big stage
Then how did Herriman and AF go 1&2 at NXN if they were inconsistent?
Inconsistent? Herriman?
The only reason we have any real losses over the past couple seasons in Utah/NXR is because we had to take on a team with one of the best coaches in the country in Timo Mostert and the kind of talent that just went 8:34, 8:38, 8:46, 8:58, 9:10 at Arcadia in the 3200. You aren't inconsistent for losing to a team like that at State or NXR. Ever.
As far as consistency at NXN goes, my personal record speaks for itself. 2018 - 2nd Place, 2019 - 2nd Place, 2022 - 3rd Place (just missed 2nd), 2023 - 1st Place. That's after going 1st in 2015 and 6th in 2016 and 2017. That's with just taking over at Herriman in the first 2 years and having one of the team favorites to win it again next year. I challenge anyone to find a boys coach that has been more consistent at NXN. Nobody is even close to that on the boy's side.
All that said, yes Newbury Park would have gone 1-4 on us in 2021. Very rarely does a team have that many top nationally ranked guys in the same place at the same time. I don't believe they would have done that to Danny Simmons though...
Then how did Herriman and AF go 1&2 at NXN if they were inconsistent?
Inconsistent? Herriman?
The only reason we have any real losses over the past couple seasons in Utah/NXR is because we had to take on a team with one of the best coaches in the country in Timo Mostert and the kind of talent that just went 8:34, 8:38, 8:46, 8:58, 9:10 at Arcadia in the 3200. You aren't inconsistent for losing to a team like that at State or NXR. Ever.
As far as consistency at NXN goes, my personal record speaks for itself. 2018 - 2nd Place, 2019 - 2nd Place, 2022 - 3rd Place (just missed 2nd), 2023 - 1st Place. That's after going 1st in 2015 and 6th in 2016 and 2017. That's with just taking over at Herriman in the first 2 years and having one of the team favorites to win it again next year. I challenge anyone to find a boys coach that has been more consistent at NXN. Nobody is even close to that on the boy's side.
All that said, yes Newbury Park would have gone 1-4 on us in 2021. Very rarely does a team have that many top nationally ranked guys in the same place at the same time. I don't believe they would have done that to Danny Simmons though...
Newbury Park 21 was the best team in history hands down. Doug stay off the message boards is bad for your “sole”
Wanting the win after Covid denied them 2020 championship, little drama, hungry coach, momentum leading into nationals, no big injuries, wanting to make a historic season. All conditions were leading them towards being absolutely dominant and bought into whatever training and paces they needed to hit to win.
I don't think even if you had the same caliber of runners magically put together (IE you take AF and Herriman current 3200m track results and compare them to 2021 NP) that they would be able to replicate the same level of cohesion that that 2021 NP team put together. On paper they might have a chance of running a better time, but I think the "intangibles" put NP over the line.
You would also need Danny and at least one other runner to disrupt that 1-3 pack from NP or it's over right from the start. Can't overcome that scoring gap unless NP'd 4th just absolutely chokes and loses to all 7 of the other teams runners. If it was a 1v1 race I think they could do it since they may have better fitness overall, but having that NP pack to work off each other is deadly. They mentioned in the RL race how Aaron Sahlman did some of the dirty work for them early in the race to push the pace. Or in the Woodbridge one where different guys were leading at different periods of the race while the others got to tuck in for a minute or two. They could work in surges to break the super team individuals, slow the pace to make them have to kick at weird times, etc. Those 3-4 NP guys working together for 2/3 of the race is just another hurdle to overcome.
You'd need a super team of runners from the entire HS XC history to beat NP 2021.
You're a clown for not looking at the Arcadia results. These teams aren't even the same as they were during Cross Country. Simmons could beat Sahlman and the Youngs easy. Especially if the course was Runninglane. Ben Jaster was 5th at Arcadia and ran 8:38, he would be up there too. Evans ran 8:46. Steadman, Hofheins, Beckstrom, and Bradshaw all run under 9 as well. All these guys would be in front of Appleford as he never broke 9. This means that they would put a 6 and 7 in front of Newbury Park's 5. Don't think it wouldn't be close because it would.
Appleford ran an 8:52 3200 during senior track. He did much better at that time than he did during hs XC
When’s the last time Doug Soles had an athlete become a success in college?
Grind and burn baby
He's been able to get a lot out of his runners. It's not his responsibility how they do in college. If anything, it probably shows he hasn't had the natural talent to work with like some of the others, like NP.
I'd be willing to bet if Soles continued to coach his athletes after they left high school, they would have continued to improve at the same rate, at least, as most college runners.
I've seen his teams in person for a while. They've always had big teams, full of happy kids, that performed extremely well. What else do you want? He doesn't control the training, the culture or the the extra curricular lives of the kids when they go to college Their college success is on them and their college coaches.
17 to 39. Even if Simmons and Jaster had performed in XC like they did at Arcadia, NP still would have dunked on them.
No team will ever be as good as 2021 Newbury Park.
The likelyhood of two of the most talented guys in the country, both going to the same school, at the same time, and both having a younger brother born within one year/hour of themselves is just incredible.
I'm still beating the drum that the Youngs and Sahlmans aren't as talented as most people think they are. Every school of a similar size has a Young and a Sahlman come through at least once a decade. AF had guys run 4:02/4:03/4:06 all in 2017 without super shoes, and 7 years later, they have guys running 8:34/8:38/8:46/8:58. That's not far off 2022 NP. It's already better than 2020 NP, which had Nico/Jace at 8:32/8:44.
Remember, these guys aren't close to German Fernandez level talents. German was injured for large portions of HS and didn't break out till his senior year. He still ran a CA state XC record, which none of the NP athletes broke, even though they went for it a few times per season, and basically had pacers for a lot of it.
"4:20 isn't fast for a HS boy" is the thing that caused all the controversy, but along with mile times for HS boys, Brosnan also said that we should have more HS girls under 10 for the 2 mile, and more pro guys running sub-13. I don't think it's a coincidence that one of his athletes was the first college kid to break 13/27. I don't think it's a coincidence that he coached Sam McDonnell to a 4:37. I don't think it's a coincidence that he had 7 guys run 8:52 or faster from 4 different families in 4 years.
And I think we're seeing now with AF and Herriman that if the kids think they need to run sub-9, or even sub-8:50, to be fast, they will rise to the occasion. Obviously not all of them, but WAY more than anyone thought before NP came along. I think there's a good chance we see a squad rivaling NP 2021/22 before the end of the decade.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
You're a clown for not looking at the Arcadia results. These teams aren't even the same as they were during Cross Country. Simmons could beat Sahlman and the Youngs easy. Especially if the course was Runninglane. Ben Jaster was 5th at Arcadia and ran 8:38, he would be up there too. Evans ran 8:46. Steadman, Hofheins, Beckstrom, and Bradshaw all run under 9 as well. All these guys would be in front of Appleford as he never broke 9. This means that they would put a 6 and 7 in front of Newbury Park's 5. Don't think it wouldn't be close because it would.
I'm a clown...?
No buddy, let me tell you what's what. You're the clown for sitting there on your fat @ss thinking you're a big man for talking sh!t over the internet. If you saw me in real life I guarantee you wouldn't dream of saying that to me. I'd have you folded like a lawn chair. You think this is a game, saying things like this online? You've got another thing coming ret@rd. The 'anonymity' you think this website provides you is no more secure than the shelter Hussein provided terrorists and WMDs. And you can call me D!ck Cheney, because Idgaf about your 'anonymity' and I'm coming to get your @ss. I've got my best people tracking you down IRL as we speak. I'll have you doxed and your position triangulated before the hour's up. Count your time left on this earth pal, because it aint measured in years, its in minutes.