College Track Double Threshold Style Training

Looking forward to following along.

I'm confused though, is your plan to actually implement double thresholds after you build up? Or are you sticking to the 3x sub threshold approach sirpoc and the Norwegian thread advocates for?

Good luck! Looking forward to following.

This has the makings of a classic thread. I hope you'll stay with it (the training and the posting!).

Are you doing the 4 x 40m before or after running 7 miles? And if before, what kind of warm-up do you do?

Narve & Gjert both said to be patient in this approach...it can take a few years to really take hold and see big improvements-- you may eventually be a Olympic Marathon Trails Q, but are you willing to commit to this training system for 3-4 years...

I wanted to highlight the first session you did and the paces. You said 2 x 2 mile at MP. It’s not often that you see reps this long in the Norwegian system. Aside from that, you said you wanted to do the reps at MP but you ran way too fast, especially on the first rep. You can get away with this now, early on and at lower volume. If you continue to run faster than the prescribed paces, you will not survive this system. You have to be incredibly disciplined. This is the main reason that people don’t see results from the system. Don’t overrun the workouts. Check the box. Do the bare minimum.

I would echo some of the other posters responses and add:

Using :10 hill sprints on your Monday session instead of the flat speed development at least for the first few months. Building up to 8-10 total with full walk back down recovery, done in the middle of an easy run. I think where you're at you'll stand to benefit more from the less risky hill work compared to flat mechanical/coordination speed sessions.

If you're going to seriously implement the lactate guided training you should consider getting an actual blood lactate monitor and doing a treadmill step test to really dial in your intensities instead of working off of a HM proxy.

Like another poster said, keeping things more conservative and making it feel actually easy is the goal and lets you build the volume of the intensity over time.

Was pleasantly surprised to see this many replies to a seemingly mundane training thread! I'll answer questions in one post rather than individually to reduce clutter.

1) jeffisaname I plan to implement one or two double threshold sessions a week once I reach sufficient/peak mileage (75 - 80). I anticipate this to be around mid-February. So yes, for now I am essentially mirroring sirpoc et al.'s approach.

2) lease I would be "honored" to have a thread I start be considered for the LetsRun classic thread Hall of Fame. In all seriousness, I plan to post once a week (Sundays) recapping that week of training. I will answer pressing questions as well.

3) parkerjohn Ever since I started implementing mini speed sessions/workouts into my training a few years ago, a typical session would consist of a 1 - 2 mi. WU (to the nearest track), drills, the speed work, the rest of the run. This seems to work for me so I do not see a reason to change it.

4) 8isGreat I plan on sticking to this training format because even after one week I am already enjoying it. Some might call it boring, but I really enjoy the prospect of working out three times a week without going overboard.

5) Gotta Go Slower (love the name) I primarily blame Garmin for being degenerate on the Tuesday workout. Made it impossible to tell pace and, as it was the first workout back, I tend to get physiological pace amnesia and have no idea what any pace faster than easy pace feels like. I will ensure this does not happen again as I am well aware that going even a bit over the line is detrimental in the long run.

First two-week cycle complete! For those wondering, I take every other Sunday off; two-week training cycles work best for me.

Some remarks after two weeks of a new style of training. Could very much be because I am low mileage right now, but legs do not feel as beat up after workouts compared to in the past when I had been adhering to Daniels' model of training. In the past, I have felt very sluggish the day after workouts (more pronounced at higher mileage); right now I feel pretty good the day after workouts; even the evening after workouts I feel fresh, hence the Saturday evening double.

Workouts also uncharacteristically do not feel like workouts, which I think is a sign I am mature about my paces and not overreaching. To answer forcerunner, I am using calculated paces and HR as my two markers since I do not have access to and cannot afford lactate monitoring/testing. My max HR is right around 200 (hit that in some races), so I'm using 65% - 70% (130 - 140 bpm) as my easy zone, although I try to keep it as realistically low as possible. For workouts, I aim to not go over 85% (170 bpm). I only went over 170 momentarily a few times this week.

As for speed development, I did not mention this, but this is not the first season I am implementing flat sprints. I started last track season and kept up in the fall, with the only difference now being I am much more decisive about the progression of the rep length/number IAW 5 x 60m thread.

Week of 12/25 - 12/31 (50 mi.):
M: 7 mi. w/ 4 x 40m speed session - only 15 mph tailwind this time
T: 5 x 1 mi. @ MP w/ 60s jog - 6:12, 6:12, 6:10, 6:08, 6:02; felt mid; Garmin was bugging again but got watch fixed later; 1 mi. flat square road loop; HR 160 average
W: 8 mi.
T: 12 x 400 @ 8K/10K w/ 30s jog - 1:20 average; 5:20 pace feels very comfortable; HR mid 160s
F: 7 mi.
S: 2 x 6 x 200 @ 3K/economy w/ 30s jog/5' rest between sets - 36 mid average; great weather made for great workout; HR only broke 170 on two reps; 4 mi. sunset double
S: Off - morning lift and planned sunset bike ride with the boys

You run 26 minutes? You are not fit or strong enough to handle this successfully. There are numerous other aerobic developmental things you need to improve before this.

I won't be quite as negative as the poster above, but I do believe some concerns are valid.

If you gave us some more background data, it would allow us to better understand where you've been, where you're at, and offer better advice. (Or maybe realize that what you're doing makes sense and stop telling you to slow down!)

How old are you?

What year in college?

When did you ata

Sorry, hit post too soon by accident!

When did you start running seriously?

High school PRs?

College PRs?

Weather first week of the year was not very pleasant to say the least. Moved back in over the weekend as well. Frankly a hectic week but managed to get relatively decent training in.

To answer it is time., sure the previous training methodology I have been using forever would probably guarantee that I slowly improve and chip off a second or two from my PRs (the rate I have been at) each season, but I wanted to revamp my training and try and maximize it before bumping up mileage again. Also, your post gives me the impression that you think I am the first not super fast runner to try out this sort of training, which has proven to work for runners of diverse backgrounds.

va coach, without face revealing, I will say that I have been alive for about twenty years, I started running in seventh grade, had poor track coaching in high school so was practically irrelevant on the track, but qualified for XC state twice and was All-State senior year. Only time trialed COVID year (I guess I was a redshirt freshman then) and raced minimally the following year due to 1) few meets, 2) atrocious weather, and 3) heavy course load. Raced four times this past XC season, peaked perfectly. More quantitative measures that reveal little, 80 mpw peak, 16 mi. long run, am comfortable doubling 1 - 2 times per week, workout days have reached 14 mi. total.

Week of 01/01 - 01/07 (60 mi.):
M: 8 mi. w/ 5 x 40m speed session
T: 4 x 1.25 mi. @ MP w/ 60s jog - 6:12 - 6:14 pace average; wet gravel and very windy; felt very comfortable though; HR 160 bpm
W: 8 mi.
T: 8 x 1000 @ HMP w/ 60s jog - 3:40 for all; HR 160 bpm
F: 8 mi.
S: 2 x 8 x 200 hill @ 5K effort w/ jog down/5' rest between sets - 41 average; steeper hill than two weeks ago; travel day worth noting
S: 12 mi.

Hello, As someone who has been doing the norweigian system for a while now, I would like to give some feedback.

To be fair, I am fairly younger than you are (15), however I have been using lactate meter and training with double threshold system for some time. Specifically, I have done single threshold sessions up to 45 min in length and recently switched to double threhsold (around 30 min am and 30 min pm) I have gone from 18:30s to 16:30s in a year or so, if you are wondering about my credentials

1. It is very hard to do this approach without a lactate meter: It is still possible, yes, but without proper guidance it is almost impossible to get right. Heartrate, race speeds will give you general idea of your threshold but if you are going to attempt double threshold, your margin for error is very small. You really dont want to push over the line of threshold, which by the way, is much slower than what most people in America consider threshold. Jack daniels claims threshold should be done at anerobic threshold (which he says is about 4.0 mMol on a general population) while with the Norwegian system people go much lower, with morning session below 2.0 mMol in AM and below 3.0-4.0 mMol in PM. Of course, without a lactate meter you have no idea what this means, but just understand that overtraining without a lactate meter is very easy with the double threshold system.

2. You need more (easy) milage: Looking at your latest week you did approx. 36 easy miles, meaning about 60% of your running was easy milage. In a study published by lief tjelta, someone who has been studying the ingebrigtsens training since as early as his pre teen days, he has found that they tend to do 23-25% of running at threshold/faster intensity. You are currently doing 40% at or above this intensity. I would start by doubling on easy days to get into the 77-75% weekly milage as easy runs or cut your workouts more. I wouldnt be worried about overtraining with doubles if you are truely keeping your easy runs easy. I am much younger than you and running similar milage (around 65-70 miles a week) with no issues as my easy days are truely easy and even my threshold is substancially eassier than most would think threshold should be. Dont be afraid to bust out some spreadsheets for figuring out your weekly milage and structure.

Some other smaller comments coming from information about the system:

- the sprint session on monday is what is normally done, however it isnt usually these small distance. 200s (in spikes) is probably more useful

- I would reccomend doing workouts in common distances, not exactly sure why you do 1.25 miles or 2 mile repeats. This will only confuse you further, I think since you are new and dont use lactate meter (from what i see) it is best to stick to distances which are commonly done and there is more information about. 1000m, 400m, or 2000m repeats are much more commonly done with the system

- dont be afraid to do time based workouts. Some common ones are 5x6min, 10x3 min. These are more applicable in the morning session when you start doing double threshold and are trying to keep the sessions really controlled.

-experiment with treadmill running: this way you can see exactly how you are getting fitter week to week to week, and it also prevents you from trying to run too fast on the workouts.
- honestly switching to km in general wouldnt be a bad idea, but this is just a minor difference

I wish you all the best sir. Please respond with anything you want to tell me and I will respond

Thank you for the thoughtful post. Excellent progression you have there. In a time pinch right now, so I will just respond to your main points.

I understand your concern about not exceeding threshold pace, although I can confidently say that I am running at least 4 seconds per mile slower than true threshold pace (hence sub-threshold) on average for every workout rep longer than 400m. In my main post, I said my true threshold was right around 5:49 +/- 1s mile pace (for one hour). I confidently believe this is accurate to within a very small margin. For reference, I was doing a lot of "tempo" workouts around 5:40 pace this past cross season, so clearly way too fast as you briefly mentioned.

As for easy mileage, this is probably my fault, but I have not been including WU/CD mileage in the workouts I have been posting, but I have been strictly adhering to the no more than 10% of weekly mileage in the form of work outlined in the training methodology. This past week I ran a total of 14 (technically 12) workout miles so to speak, when in theory I could have gotten away with up to 18 (60/10 = 6 per day max). That is, less than 25% of my mileage this week was from hard running. If I am delusional in this thought process, please kindly clarify, although I believe the 10% rule is factual.

I do 1.25 mi. and 2 mi. repeats because those distances are closest to 2K and 3K repeats, respectively, outlined in the training methodology. Have not yet figured out how to get kilometer repeats on Garmin (skill issue probably), and I doubt running marginally more than 2K and 3K per repeat is a deal breaker assuming I am clipping a healthy pace.

With the weather being quite terrible now and only looking to get worse in the upcoming weeks, I very likely will end up running some workouts on the treadmill, in that case I will probably switch to time based workouts since I have unconquered demons when it comes to distance based treadmill workouts.

As for actually implementing two workouts per day, I roughly outlined my mileage build and peak, and I only see myself running two workouts once a week on Tuesday when I hit peak mileage in March and April. I will definitely refer back to your advice when I get there.

Lovely weather we are having this time of year! This past week was very bouncy, with the weather jumping from unfathomably cold, snowy, and windy to just cold and back in the span of a few days. Glad I at least could get one workout done outside.

Going to be racing in an indoor meet two weeks from now, so it will be a good checkpoint marker to see how I am doing compared to previous years. Planning on running the mile and 3K, with the mile first, so it will be a fun yet challenging double.

Next week will look fairly similar (just with more treadmill workouts), but I am still not entirely certain about how to structure a non-peak/important race week. My current understanding is that the Tuesday session is essentially normal, while the Thursday session is more of a speed session (200s, 150s, 100s), with strides on Friday. Would appreciate any insight on this!

Week of 01/08 - 01/14 (55 mi.):
M: 8 mi. + 5 x 40m
T: 2.5 mi. WU, 3 x 10' @ MP w/ 60s jog, 2.5 mi. CD (10 mi.) - treadmill; listened to advice and made this a time-based workout; 9.8 mph 1% incline 6:10 pace; HR mid 160s; Woodways feel harder than outside
W: 7 mi.
T: 3 mi. WU, 16 x 400 @ 8K/10K w/ 30s jog, 3 mi. CD (10 mi.) - outside track; 1:21 for all; HR 155 - 170 bpm; felt very comfortable
F: 8 mi.
S: 3 mi. WU, 2 x 8 x 200 @ 3K/economy w/ 30s jog/5' rest between sets, 3 mi. CD, 4 mi. shakeout later (12 mi.) - treadmill; set mill to 12 mph 2% incline 4:56 pace and ran 37s per rep; inconsistent HR readings but effort was what I wanted it to be
S: Off - morning swim and lift

In regard to structuring the week leading up to your indoor race, I would do exactly as you mentioned:

The only thing I may do differently is retaining some quality reps in your Thursday session, as I think of dropping the '2-3 day out-from-a-race' sessions to purely speed whenever you are midway through outdoor; my point is that (dependent on your belief in yourself and ability) you may want to train through that week with the understanding that it's an early season race and you're really just getting a gauge of your current fitness. But, I don't know! You may the type who would have more fun if you can give a real show of ability while feeling the best, and having fun (in my mind) is WHY we run competitively outside of an actual program.

Best of luck, and I am looking forward to hearing some BALLER race results!

Have been exceptionally busy the past few weeks and am just now getting the chance to post a training update. Weather has frankly been the worst it has been in the past few years, so lots of treadmill running, including workouts.

Week of 01/15 - 01/21 (65 mi.):
M: 8 mi. + 6 x 40m
T: 2 mi. WU, 6 x 6' @ MP w/ 60s jog, 2 mi. CD (10 mi.) - 9.8 mph 1% incline 6:10 pace; jog rest 8:00 pace; HR mid 160s average; mentally tough as expected
W: 8 mi.
T: 2 mi. WU, 10 x 3' @ HMP w/ 60s jog, 2 mi. CD (10 mi.) - 10.2 mph 1% incline 5:56 pace; HR 158 bpm average (peaked 160); first treadmill workout where I felt invincible, was absolutely not trying or getting tired
F: 7 mi.
S: 3 mi. WU, 2 x 10 x 200 hill, 3 mi. CD (8 mi.) - will never do a hill workout on a treadmill ever again; no other comments necessary
S: 14 mi.

Meet week was also a mixed bag. Thursday was my first time working out outside in over two weeks, and the rain will not subside. Otherwise felt pretty good on most runs.
The meet itself was a good experience. Ran low 4:40s and low 9:20s, which, while absolutely not praiseworthy times, carry a lot of weight considering 1) first meet, 2) 200m flat track (surface was basically carpet too), 3) ran in lane two for most of the mile due to packed heats, and 4) I ran about 5s faster in both events than I did last year in late February, after which I went on to run low 4:30s and 15:50 outdoors.

As more of a training style update, I felt aerobically strong in the mile, just did not have the bounce/turnover required to run super quick (at least indoors). Same in the 3K, although my legs were kind of out of it because of the mile earlier. I think it is crazy that without any race pace workouts per se, I am essentially faster than I was during all of indoor last year. I have three more weeks of building before another indoor meet (on a better track), where I will be looking to run a fast 3K. I have no doubt this training method will yield incredible results in due time.

Week of 01/22 - 01/28 (50 mi. down week):
M: 7 mi. + 6 x 40m
T: 1.5 mi. WU, 3 x 10' @ MP w/ 60s jog, 1.5 mi. CD (8 mi.) - standard treadmill workout; felt mid as heck but HR was good in the mid 160s
W: 8 mi.
T: 3 mi. WU, 4 x 200 w/ 200 jog, 3 x 150 w/ 250 jog, 2 x 100 w/ 100 jog, 3 mi. CD (8 mi.)
F: 7 mi. + 4S (strides) - worth noting post tib muscle/tendon was acting strange
S: mile + 3K double (12 mi. total w/ WU/CD) - post tib muscle/tendon went mostly unnoticed but still of slight concern
S: off - swim and lift; "prehab" icing and self-massage