I don't think its all due to women wanting to settle down later. Its people in general. I don't know anybody who even got married before 28/29 and most were in their early to mid thirties. Ditto. Finding a man willing to get married and have kids in his mid twenties is pretty much impossible. Even if you devote all of your free time to "seeking them out" - was that a thing? Didn't men have to seek women out in the past? Nearly all of my female friends have been let go by their boyfriends and then struggled to find another one because men don't want to commit. I think theres this tendency to blame women for everything. Men ghosting, ending relationships on a whim, disappearing, and most commonly, refusing to commit to even being a boyfriend are where its at now. Agreed. As a 30 year old man, it's incredible how many guys I know between 28-40 I have who have been in long term relationships for 5+ years, who, when asked, will insist it's not endgame. On multiple occasions I've seen these guys end their relationships. The first instance of this began 5 years ago when a friend, then 30, dumped his 29 year old girlfriend of 6 years, spent the next 3 years dating, before finding and marrying a now 26 year old.
I have another friend, about to turn 32, who is planning on dumping his wonderful girlfriend of 11 years, now 30. He claims he's been checking out of the relationship for 4 years, but the past 18 months have seen him transition to 'seeing her as a sister'. His contention is that if he brings kids into the situation it'll be terrible for everyone involved. My issue (which I've expressed, but then moved past because it won't help matters and he's guilty enough as it is) is that the '4 years' is more like 6 or 7, and I remember using the above example as a cautionary tale back when that happened. Didn't change things. He took the comfortably route, and now its his gf who'll be left blindsided. This is just par for the course. Cowardice and comfort leading to case studies in wasting everybody's time.
The other side of this phenomenon is what I've had a front road seat to with my 28 year old sister, and her group of extremely close childhood friends, and that's 'settling'. Post #70 in this thread rather bluntly spells it out. And frankly, for some, they're settling hard. It's a perfect storm of social convention (it's 'marriage age' I need to be married) - which is no doubt informed by biological reality (fertility) - and pragmatism (basically the environment you've described - the guys with options just don't want to settle in the majority of cases, and there are nice guys with good jobs who feel like they've won the lottery).
I think the OP is asking people for permission to cheat. I think he needs to post more information about his relationship and the reasons he chose to marry a woman who he didn't have much sex with and why he expected that to change on marriage. The other reasons he married her must have been really important to him, so why are they no longer important? Agreed.
^
I definitely agree that a person staying in a relationship for years, knowing they're going to break things off and are just waiting for a convenient exit strategy are the worst.
What I don't agree with is the idea that people "settle." If as a woman, you're 28, and none of the guys you've been with don't want you back, then that just means that caliber of guy is not where you're valued in the dating market. The guys who want to marry you is what you're worth on the dating market. The market gets to determine your worth. Just like asking $100,000 for a Honda Accord doesn't make it worth $100,000, the price you're able to sell it for is what it's worth (in general).
The regretful 40 year old woman is not a myth, it's a future. This idea of strong, independent woman who don't need a man is a pretty recent idea (fourth-wave feminism).
A lot of young men seem to delight in the idea of turning the tables on all these 20 something women and think they're going to come running in a few years time. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!
4th wave feminists are more anti-capitalist than previous generations, women are not busting a gut to be a girlboss anymore.
Is that true though? If you go on LinkedIn most younger 20s and 30s (and even 40s women) are all BA/BS or higher and have corporate jobs. There are a few females in the trades that are rocking as well but most women 22-40 are corporate. DEI initiatives help considerably.
I'm married but I know plenty of single women. I'm pretty sure their lives don't consist of drinking pinot and petting cats. They seem to hold down jobs, travel, socialise with friends and do sport or other hobbies. Some of them are divorced, some never married. Compared to a lot of married women I know, they have way better lives. They aren't fried to a bean running after men AND kids, or a "nurse with a purse" to some peripatetic lodger. The unluckiest are the single moms who are left doing all the childcare and paying most or all of the costs.
Relationships with men are risky - the idea that for women it's a choice between married paradise and wine and cats makes you sound like a dinosaur. Do you really think women believe that sort of stuff and think "oooh I better suffocate my personality and get married to trucker guy and pop out 3 kids before 30 JUST I CASE I'm no longer desirable to a random on the Internet who sleeps around with any woman desperate enough? Many, many women, an increasing number of them, are happier without a man in their lives. Many are not that bothered about kids. Some go it alone just fine.
Why would any woman want to get married to you? Life with you would be miserable. If all you can offer is the threat of wine and cats, well thats... Well thanks for giving me free comedy.
If you are really that afraid of being alone that you have to denigrate women, see a therapist to help you stop being so frightened.
As for the OP, he chose this woman knowing her attitude towards sex with him. I wonder if he didn't have many choices so just married somebody willing, thinking he could cheat because neither of them are that into each other. I think he would be advised to think about why he is making poor life choices and what he is projecting towards other people. It almost sounds like a marriage of two strangers. Maybe he should consider wine and cats?
You talk about how great single life is for middle-aged women and how terrible marriage is, yet you're supposedly married...
I was just saying what my experience has been, and so far my experience has validated the stereotype of the sad, lonely, borderline-alcoholic single woman in her 30's/40' with her pets. I've yet to meet a boss b!tch who seems TRULY content with her life. Yet to add insult to injury, they price themselves out of the dating market because they believe earning more money entitles them to a "higher quality" man. Good luck with that
Some women (not all) will say money doesn't matter on the dating sites but they will size guys up (and guys do this too) and ask them about their jobs first and foremost. Some guys feel truly threatened by the woman any more (which is dumb) BUT I think if the woman does earn too much more than it's awkward due to social circles being different. If the woman earns a little bit more than the man it's not a big deal.
In a sexless marriage, what should you do? It's time to Shut that sh*t down.
Let's get down to business, I don't got no time to play around, what is this? Must be a circus in town, let's shut the sh*t down on these clowns; can I get a witness?
Really appreciate everyone's feedback. It's been tough navigating this issue alone. To answer some questions, she does not take any form of birth control, she is very active and often times does not eat enough, which she believes contributes to her low sex drive. It just seems like sex is and will never be a priority for her. She does not want kids, and I do want kids. It was always a topic we brushed off and usually the discussion ended with her saying, "I'll come around."
I'm an attractive guy. I ran in college and have since gotten a good job. I do fear that it could be that I am the "nice guy" that she can come home to, be safe, be friends with all of her friends and be cool with her parents, yet when the lights go off and it's just us, there's a million miles between us. I was always good with arousing women, yet she has turned it down so many times I have honestly stopped trying. Excuses like being too tired or not horny feel like a brick wall that just keeps getting higher.
Final thought, I am going to have an honest discussion with her and seek out relational therapy. Hoping for the best. Preparing for the worst. Thankful for this community.
I'm married but I know plenty of single women. I'm pretty sure their lives don't consist of drinking pinot and petting cats. They seem to hold down jobs, travel, socialise with friends and do sport or other hobbies. Some of them are divorced, some never married. Compared to a lot of married women I know, they have way better lives. They aren't fried to a bean running after men AND kids, or a "nurse with a purse" to some peripatetic lodger. The unluckiest are the single moms who are left doing all the childcare and paying most or all of the costs.
Relationships with men are risky - the idea that for women it's a choice between married paradise and wine and cats makes you sound like a dinosaur. Do you really think women believe that sort of stuff and think "oooh I better suffocate my personality and get married to trucker guy and pop out 3 kids before 30 JUST I CASE I'm no longer desirable to a random on the Internet who sleeps around with any woman desperate enough? Many, many women, an increasing number of them, are happier without a man in their lives. Many are not that bothered about kids. Some go it alone just fine.
Why would any woman want to get married to you? Life with you would be miserable. If all you can offer is the threat of wine and cats, well thats... Well thanks for giving me free comedy.
If you are really that afraid of being alone that you have to denigrate women, see a therapist to help you stop being so frightened.
As for the OP, he chose this woman knowing her attitude towards sex with him. I wonder if he didn't have many choices so just married somebody willing, thinking he could cheat because neither of them are that into each other. I think he would be advised to think about why he is making poor life choices and what he is projecting towards other people. It almost sounds like a marriage of two strangers. Maybe he should consider wine and cats?
You talk about how great single life is for middle-aged women and how terrible marriage is, yet you're supposedly married...
I was just saying what my experience has been, and so far my experience has validated the stereotype of the sad, lonely, borderline-alcoholic single woman in her 30's/40' with her pets. I've yet to meet a boss b!tch who seems TRULY content with her life. Yet to add insult to injury, they price themselves out of the dating market because they believe earning more money entitles them to a "higher quality" man. Good luck with that
You do realise that women who are married are still permitted opinions? Or maybe you think we have to run them past our husbands first, Stepford style?
I just do not understand how it that guys like you know so many alcoholic women with cats. I don't know any, and I have a huge number of female friends (certainly more than the average guy does), both single and married, and I don't know a single alcoholic. Are you an ex alcoholic yourself? Is that how you meet them? You move in very strange social circles.
Maybe it's because you do Internet dating? You realise a lot of women won't use it because it's just a meat market, right?
Your use of language is a problem too. You are giving off vibes that you hate women and you don't sound very classy. Maybe that's why only alcoholics will date you? Imagine if somebody took you to a summer party with work colleagues and you started talking like that. You would be so embarrassing to be around.
If a woman says she isn't interested, accept it. Don't argue that she needs to see a therapist to have sex with me she isn't attracted to or is sad and lonely. Allow her to make that choice. Not everybody finds their soulmate in life. There's nothing wrong with being single.
If something happened to my husband, nothing on earth would make me date again. There are too many men out there looking for gullible single woman with nice homes and savings to cook and clean for them. Bring on the cats I say! I have family and friends to give me company. It's very unlikely that everybody's spouse will die at the exact same time as them, so practice how to spend time alone happily. Something many people don't think about, and a bit doom mongering, but true.
Women are like professional athletes. Physical peak in mid 20s and its a short window. Gotta capitalize and maximize in those few years and then go be a coach (to your kids).
Yes, there are a lot of loser guys out there. But many women who are looking to marry and start a family should be more discerning and upfront about big life goals. Don't demand a rock on the first date, obviously. But hint at the fact you are dating to find a life partner, not dating just to date. That alone will instantly scare away the loser guys.
You talk about how great single life is for middle-aged women and how terrible marriage is, yet you're supposedly married...
I was just saying what my experience has been, and so far my experience has validated the stereotype of the sad, lonely, borderline-alcoholic single woman in her 30's/40' with her pets. I've yet to meet a boss b!tch who seems TRULY content with her life. Yet to add insult to injury, they price themselves out of the dating market because they believe earning more money entitles them to a "higher quality" man. Good luck with that
You do realise that women who are married are still permitted opinions? Or maybe you think we have to run them past our husbands first, Stepford style?
No, what a dumb interpretation of my words. I was just pointing out the contradiction in your words since you seem to have pretty terrible opinions of men and relationships, yet you're in a marriage with a man. It doesn't quite add up.
The point I was making was that middle-aged, single women are not as happy as many seem to claim, and my experience validated this stereotype. You are the one who thinks men are abusive, sexist and entitled so who is really the hateful one? You're the female version of an incel and everyone would be rolling their eyes at the cookout if you started spouting off your misandrist attitudes, all the while not seeing the irony that you're also married.
Really appreciate everyone's feedback. It's been tough navigating this issue alone. To answer some questions, she does not take any form of birth control, she is very active and often times does not eat enough, which she believes contributes to her low sex drive. It just seems like sex is and will never be a priority for her. She does not want kids, and I do want kids. It was always a topic we brushed off and usually the discussion ended with her saying, "I'll come around."
I'm an attractive guy. I ran in college and have since gotten a good job. I do fear that it could be that I am the "nice guy" that she can come home to, be safe, be friends with all of her friends and be cool with her parents, yet when the lights go off and it's just us, there's a million miles between us. I was always good with arousing women, yet she has turned it down so many times I have honestly stopped trying. Excuses like being too tired or not horny feel like a brick wall that just keeps getting higher.
Final thought, I am going to have an honest discussion with her and seek out relational therapy. Hoping for the best. Preparing for the worst. Thankful for this community.
I've been married for 15 years and good gosh ladies sometimes you have to PUT OUT even though you don't want to. I usually 100% will side with women and have had my own time where doing it was unbearable (3 kids/baby nursing/toddler chaos/no sleep). However I still made time for it, even if it was the LAST thing I wanted to do because it IS important to your marriage.
Also for a younger woman she may need to get her hormone levels checked and that could be the issue. It sucks you're going through this and it doesn't seem right for a younger couple. Another thought is switch up to morning? I always hated getting the kids down to sleep and me getting ready for bed and then comes in the husband and I'm ready for tv and relaxing. Just a thought. Good luck, I hope you figure it out and let her know how you feel. You shouldn't feel ashamed for expressing your needs as well.
You talk about how great single life is for middle-aged women and how terrible marriage is, yet you're supposedly married...
I was just saying what my experience has been, and so far my experience has validated the stereotype of the sad, lonely, borderline-alcoholic single woman in her 30's/40' with her pets. I've yet to meet a boss b!tch who seems TRULY content with her life. Yet to add insult to injury, they price themselves out of the dating market because they believe earning more money entitles them to a "higher quality" man. Good luck with that
You do realise that women who are married are still permitted opinions? Or maybe you think we have to run them past our husbands first, Stepford style?
I just do not understand how it that guys like you know so many alcoholic women with cats. I don't know any, and I have a huge number of female friends (certainly more than the average guy does), both single and married, and I don't know a single alcoholic. Are you an ex alcoholic yourself? Is that how you meet them? You move in very strange social circles.
Maybe it's because you do Internet dating? You realise a lot of women won't use it because it's just a meat market, right?
Your use of language is a problem too. You are giving off vibes that you hate women and you don't sound very classy. Maybe that's why only alcoholics will date you? Imagine if somebody took you to a summer party with work colleagues and you started talking like that. You would be so embarrassing to be around.
If a woman says she isn't interested, accept it. Don't argue that she needs to see a therapist to have sex with me she isn't attracted to or is sad and lonely. Allow her to make that choice. Not everybody finds their soulmate in life. There's nothing wrong with being single.
If something happened to my husband, nothing on earth would make me date again. There are too many men out there looking for gullible single woman with nice homes and savings to cook and clean for them. Bring on the cats I say! I have family and friends to give me company. It's very unlikely that everybody's spouse will die at the exact same time as them, so practice how to spend time alone happily. Something many people don't think about, and a bit doom mongering, but true.
Despite the angry, argumentative types that drive this message board, I really appreciate seeing the smart perspective in the rare female post on here. Which is also why I probably miss many of them, as the noise on this board is the prime reason to avoid it.
You do realise that women who are married are still permitted opinions? Or maybe you think we have to run them past our husbands first, Stepford style?
No, what a dumb interpretation of my words. I was just pointing out the contradiction in your words since you seem to have pretty terrible opinions of men and relationships, yet you're in a marriage with a man. It doesn't quite add up.
The point I was making was that middle-aged, single women are not as happy as many seem to claim, and my experience validated this stereotype. You are the one who thinks men are abusive, sexist and entitled so who is really the hateful one? You're the female version of an incel and everyone would be rolling their eyes at the cookout if you started spouting off your misandrist attitudes, all the while not seeing the irony that you're also married.
As previously stated, married women are allowed opinions.
I'm afraid that your expertise on dating lonely alcoholics doesn't make you an expert on women. I'm afraid that my experience of being a woman, and successfully avoiding men like you, does.
If marriage is so important to you, why don't you get married? Give dating the endless succession of alcoholics you seem to be meeting.
You sound very educated if you believe women having opinions makes them incels.
OP, - your wife sounds... a little strange and possibly anti social. It's difficult to say what's going on in anybody's relationship, normally when I hear men describing their wives to other people, they're quite proud of them and maybe compliment them or say something about them. You sound like you're describing a work colleague that you don't know that well.
Having kids or not is something you really need to be in agreement on before you get married. It's still a mystery why you married a woman who told you she didn't want kids when you do and who you didn't have a very good sex life with. Is she an excellent cook? Did she seem mysterious or something similar?
You sound like you feel rejected and maybe thats not only happening in the bedroom side of things? I think if I was that unhappy, I'd walk.
No, what a dumb interpretation of my words. I was just pointing out the contradiction in your words since you seem to have pretty terrible opinions of men and relationships, yet you're in a marriage with a man. It doesn't quite add up.
The point I was making was that middle-aged, single women are not as happy as many seem to claim, and my experience validated this stereotype. You are the one who thinks men are abusive, sexist and entitled so who is really the hateful one? You're the female version of an incel and everyone would be rolling their eyes at the cookout if you started spouting off your misandrist attitudes, all the while not seeing the irony that you're also married.
As previously stated, married women are allowed opinions.
I'm afraid that your expertise on dating lonely alcoholics doesn't make you an expert on women. I'm afraid that my experience of being a woman, and successfully avoiding men like you, does.
If marriage is so important to you, why don't you get married? Give dating the endless succession of alcoholics you seem to be meeting.
You sound very educated if you believe women having opinions makes them incels.
OP, - your wife sounds... a little strange and possibly anti social. It's difficult to say what's going on in anybody's relationship, normally when I hear men describing their wives to other people, they're quite proud of them and maybe compliment them or say something about them. You sound like you're describing a work colleague that you don't know that well.
Having kids or not is something you really need to be in agreement on before you get married. It's still a mystery why you married a woman who told you she didn't want kids when you do and who you didn't have a very good sex life with. Is she an excellent cook? Did she seem mysterious or something similar?
You sound like you feel rejected and maybe thats not only happening in the bedroom side of things? I think if I was that unhappy, I'd walk.
Person: I don't think you're correct
Feminist: I'M ALLOWED TO HAVE AN OPINION!
Glad to see you're still in this thread, enlightening us with your wisdom. I'm not sure how being a straight, married woman really gives you the perspective on dating women that you think.
The problem is OP got in a relationship with a woman more attractive than him. Every guy thinks this is what he wants but that's the price you pay. You really must get with a woman less attractive than you if you want to be happy. Sorry, I don't like that either but does seem to be true from what I've seen.
The problem is OP got in a relationship with a woman more attractive than him. Every guy thinks this is what he wants but that's the price you pay. You really must get with a woman less attractive than you if you want to be happy. Sorry, I don't like that either but does seem to be true from what I've seen.
You're right, this thread is utterly worthless without pics.
Women can “have it all” until they suddenly realize in their 30s that they desperately want children, the stability of a husband instead of a series of sex partners, and to be taken care of instead of working until they die.
These are perfectly normal things for women to want. They used to seek them out at a fairly young age, say early 20s.
But second wave feminism and the opportunities it has afforded women hasn’t made these urges go away. It has caused women to delay seeking them, and that can be a serious problem. It’s harder to have children in your mid-30s, it’s also harder to find a good husband. Statistically, having large numbers of sexual partners makes it harder for women to stay married.
Its actually harder to find a good husband at a young age in the past. Due to dating apps, men not wishing to settle down, date multiple women, cheat, etc. If you are a woman expecting to get married and have children in your twenties, then you are going to be quite unusual or maybe live in a very small town with a very settled population. Or marry an older man, but then that might mean taking on somebody's else kids part time plus the appearance might not be so good and that isn't for everybody. It can be difficult dealing with someone from a different generation and with different cultural references, and then them likely being in ill health and unable to do stuff when retirement eventually does come.
I don't think its all due to women wanting to settle down later. Its people in general. I don't know anybody who even got married before 28/29 and most were in their early to mid thirties. Finding a man willing to get married and have kids in his mid twenties is pretty much impossible. Even if you devote all of your free time to "seeking them out" - was that a thing? Didn't men have to seek women out in the past?
Nearly all of my female friends have been let go by their boyfriends and then struggled to find another one because men don't want to commit. I think theres this tendency to blame women for everything. Men ghosting, ending relationships on a whim, disappearing, and most commonly, refusing to commit to even being a boyfriend are where its at now. I know there must be women who behave like that too but women are less sex driven than men and we are socialised to get married and have kids more than men, so I'd be surprised if this was all due to women. Women getting blamed for ending things with guys who cheat, or who treat them badly or unreliable isn't the same as "women delaying getting married/motherhood". Having kids with someone who won't even call themselves your boyfriend isn't a great thing to do.
I think the OP is asking people for permission to cheat. I think he needs to post more information about his relationship and the reasons he chose to marry a woman who he didn't have much sex with and why he expected that to change on marriage. The other reasons he married her must have been really important to him, so why are they no longer important?
I don’t know if your post is directed towards me specifically, but you’re not saying anything I don’t already know. Everyone knows marriage is less common now, and people think of their 20s not as a time to settle down and have a family, but instead to have sex with large numbers of people and “enjoy themselves.”
As for your theory that men are more to blame than women, because men just want to have sex, that is silly and indicates that you need to do more research. Both men and women are equally to blame. Both men and women pursue casual sexual relationships to the detriment of their future marriage stability. Each may pursue sexual relationships for different reasons, but they both wind up in the same place. Neither sex is innocent.
I could go into details about men and women’s behavior in online dating, but that would be long and tedious, and I’m not sure it would serve any purpose.
if you’re asking for more details from the OP, be advised that this thread is a blatant troll. It makes for some interesting discussions, as trolls often do, which is why I am glad and pleasantly surprised that the moderators didn’t kill it.
This is why massage parlors exist. Having an a affair with one other woman can be messy and ugly, even a one night stand can have loose ends. Massage parlors are pretty much universally condoned as a quick, relatively cheap no strings attached and can offer the feeling of uniqueness on a regular basis. This is why the law pretty much turns a blind eye as cops, judges etc are doing the same thing. SO shouldn't be upset as there is no emotional connection.
Really appreciate everyone's feedback. It's been tough navigating this issue alone. To answer some questions, she does not take any form of birth control, she is very active and often times does not eat enough, which she believes contributes to her low sex drive. It just seems like sex is and will never be a priority for her. She does not want kids, and I do want kids. It was always a topic we brushed off and usually the discussion ended with her saying, "I'll come around."
I'm an attractive guy. I ran in college and have since gotten a good job. I do fear that it could be that I am the "nice guy" that she can come home to, be safe, be friends with all of her friends and be cool with her parents, yet when the lights go off and it's just us, there's a million miles between us. I was always good with arousing women, yet she has turned it down so many times I have honestly stopped trying. Excuses like being too tired or not horny feel like a brick wall that just keeps getting higher.
Final thought, I am going to have an honest discussion with her and seek out relational therapy. Hoping for the best. Preparing for the worst. Thankful for this community.
Best of luck; usually it's the wife who wants kids and the husband who does not! But good for you for being open and honest--some women nowadays don't want kids and see them as burdens to their freedom.