Rhonex Kipruto suspended

You don't think that with epo their threshold pace might be a little faster?

Yes, he is trying to provoke.

Why does it work only for East Africans so successfully?

No it doesn't! I never said that! But Canova claims it doesn't work on east africans...

Not just EPO. He doesn't think performance enhancing drugs are performance enhancing. He got lost on his way to the fake moon landing threads.

I'll take the published writer over the anonymous on-line fake moon-landing advocate - sorry, doping denier.

Ummm... you only corrected the part that made the list smaller. Shouldn't you be more comprehensive when playing judge and jury? Hahahahaha, the thought of you mentioning more drug cheats is hilarious.

I merely copied a list. Ghost1 did not say within the last 5 years. You failed to complete it (WR holder Saruni is missing (test evasion - is that ok or a sign of doping?)), and failed to fill in the "etc. etc.", such as Olympic silver medalist Kirwa, 9.77 runner Omanyala, 2:05 (pre super shoes) runner Loyanae, and Kisorio was also earlier banned for roids. And last but not least Kipruto, according to the AIU. Looks like over 20 to me, but who is counting?

All too often, the goalposts change, and for some reason, my reminding everyone the original goalpost is met with pushback and personal criticism. I'm not playing judge and jury, but historian.

Ghost1 said "caught for using PEDs", so I rightly excluded the ones not "caught for using PEDs". This would exclude "Saruni" too, regardless of whether it is "OK or a sign of doping". We shouldn't double-book Kipruto either.

He also said "truly super elite". That is more vague, with margin for subjective interpretation, but sure, when we lower the performance benchmarks, we will increase the number of athletes "caught".

For someone who didn't do any analysis, 10-20 seems a reasonable ballpark range for "truly super elite Kenyans caught for using PEDs", provided we don't stray too far from that goalpost.

Canova has never claimed that.

We know you are averse to being educated.

So it works for anybody the same? Europeans just don't use it? Why are East Africans much more successful in the Marathon than Europeans?

The East Africans have the numbers compared to Europeans, they have the historic lack of testing and they have the relative poverty which means cheating is a more viable risk to take.

They also have the Rosas and Canovas of this world who make a lot of money out of exploiting them, which is harder to do with European athletes.

Europeans have used and still do use EPO. Just not as rampantly and they often need to be more careful.

You freaks actually believe it's 'racist' to claim that doping is much more prevalent in East Africa (due to financial incentives and lack of testing), yet not only do you fervently insist that East Africans have some special genetic advantage for running, you claim that their physiologies are so different to ours that powerful performance enhancing drugs like EPO do not work on them!

Why had no Kenyan broken 2:10 for the marathon until EPO became available in the early 90's, while 5 alone from Japan already had?

Russians don't dope? Why are East Africans 10+ minutes faster in the Marathon than Russians? Yeah, I know in Russia they have to fight with mammoths in the taiga at -70 degrees and all are millionaires and don't need any extra money.

Three Kenyans have.

Have you ever given correct stats in this forum?

Is that what you call doping denial?

I'm always trying to provoke thought. I didn't say "no gains". You did say "works...a lot...". I simply don't take that for granted. My "provocative" question to you, and everyone, is always the same -- assuming for discussion that it "works...a lot..." for East Africans, where were the "EPO (or other PEDs) "works...a lot..."" for sea-level non-Africans?

I'll concede for the sake of argument that continuous micro-dosing of EPO for every moment of your life for decades "works". This "special population" of being born, living, and training at altitude have the environmental advantage of continuous natural stimulation of EPO, every day and every minute of their life, from the moment they are born. For that reason alone, it seems like, to the extent that EPO provides gains, adding synthetic EPO on top should provide significantly more gains for sea-level athletes, who lack this continuous lifelong micro-dosed stimulation, than for lifelong altitude residents who will have already achieved these gains, naturally.

Yet when I looked at EPO-era performances spanning 28 years from1990-2017, before the widespread impact of supershoes, I found the opposite. Despite representing 85% of the world, there were absolutely very few non-African athletes (a low quantity) outperforming the best times of the 1980s, before EPO. East Africans (representing 6% of the world population) outnumbered non-Africans by more than a factor of 10. And from the few that did outperform the 1980s, the best non-Africans were significantly slower (lower quality) than the corresponding group of East Africans. Measuring relative progress from the best of the various groups compared to the 1980s, the East Africans improved by a factor of 3 to 4x more than the sea-level non-Africans.

So when someone says EPO works a lot, my question is always, since EPO was available and used worldwide, where were the "works a lot" sea-level non-African performances for nearly three decades, or at the very least, in the decade when there was no test at all for EPO?

A very good summary!

Doping doesn't cause everyone to become equally superfast (it's not magic after all), but it does cause everyone to improve, which is why doping is so rampant.