The article was initially entiteld, "Zane Robertston!!!!" but we changed it to make it more descriptive. Here is our article on his bust and fake excuses (he said he went to a hospital for a COvid-19 vaccine but they gave him EPO instead) which points out that in 2016 he expressed frutation at the amount of doping in the sport:
rekrunner, the last I checked participants of judo, body-building, and football all count as athletes. I believe the original claim didn't specify runners as you seem to be trying to narrow it down to. Furthermore, I'd already acknowledged that they wouldn't have all doped in January as 'there's always a time lag between somebody being caught and sanctioned'.
Ergo, the original claim of 2 athletes per week was not outlandish, as the actual official figure was over 1.5.
They are indeed athletes, but I just note the ambiguity because this is a running site, concerned with the sport of athletics. I made the calculations for the runners, but you can repeat them for all athletes if you want.
But your unofficial calculation of "over 1.5 per week" simply uses the wrong timeframe in the denominator, as it was not specified in the article you linked. I made the extra effort to find out the correct time period corresponding to these 20 suspensions.
"Nation.africa" explained earlier, in a January 6, 2023 article, announcing the release of the names:
"(ADAK CEO) Shibutse said since the start of their calendar in July last year, they have suspended 20 sportsmen and women mostly from athletics with a couple coming from football and body-building."
"Shibutse revealed that they will before the end of this week release names of those under suspension."
These are the 20 athletes announced and named in another "Nation.africa" article on January 7, 2023. If you want to say 20 athletes counting all sports, you have to start counting "since the start of their calendar in July last year". Then these figures range from 0.51-0.74 Kenyan athletes suspended per week (whether you stop counting weeks at January 7, or at end of March).
So whether you count "official" busts, suspensions, or sanctions, there is no "official" way to arrive at 1.5 to 2 Kenyans busted/suspended/sanctioned per week.
You have argued it's "almost one a week". That's more than many other countries incur in a decade. So does Kenya have a serious doping problem or not? Both Kenyan Athletics and World Athletics agree that it does.
So just to clarify, that unless the news of a positive is released straightaway then that bust doesn't count to the total in your mind?
If you want to know how many positives there were in Q1 then maybe look for figures released in Q3/Q4. Again, time lag in reporting. It's not a hard concept to grasp.
Sure they all count in my mind. Just pick what you are counting, and then count the right number of weeks. Is that so hard to grasp?
"Honesty, integrity, humility and contrition"? That - from you? From one who says he had to "learn" sympathy for women. (I have news for you - one who has to "learn" these things never understands what he thinks he has "learned"). A lecture on character from you is as meaningful as a lecture on honesty from Bernie Madoff. Or on sporting ethics from Alberto Salazar. You are quite the biggest fake who has ever posted here.
Your all over the map here. We are already off topic talking about how many Kenyans are really officially busted per week, and in one post, you bring in Kara, Bernie Madoff and Alberto Salazar, to make a personal attack against me.
Why can't you just talk rationally about the "scale" using figures you can reasonably justify?
Why assume that he was talking about sport? Each week at least 2.5 Kenyans were popped this year - including politics, crime (not that those are two completely different areas), family and so on.
We can agree then that Armstrong made an absolutely correct statement!
Kenya has been p*ssing doping busts for years and you want to argue about the numbers ("is it two or just one a week?") as though that changes the fact it has one of the worst "doping diseases" and incurs more doping violations in a month than other countries do in a decade. But the disease is certainly enabled by the minimizers and deniers on these threads. They are as corrupt as those they seek to defend.
Two or one a week? Where did you get those numbers?
You claimed it's something like ~2.5/week in 2023 when the real number is probably more like 0.5/week. So something like a 400% exaggeration on your side. I have to admit, for you that must seem to be an accurate statement when often you are much more away from the real number.
Recently Kenya has had more doping violations than any other country, that's true. Also true is that Kenya has much more top runners than any other country.
Absolute numbers can't tell the full story. But surely I will fail in explaining this to someone who thinks a second in a 1500m is worth the same than a second in a 3000m (with the definitive consequence that a 10.58 in the 100m is worth the same as a 2:01:10 in the Marathon (btw., have you already solved the mystery about the . and the : in the times?)
I fail to see where it says 'two Kenyan runners per week', distance or otherwise. Obviously you can guess that that's what he meant, but equally somebody else could guess that a lot of the posts on here are attempting to minimise the extent of doping in Kenya by changing the criteria against which it is being quantified; e.g. only athletics, or only people who are reported within a day or two of being busted, or only when the wind is blowing from the south, or only if the bust happens at the same time as 5 people jump into Chebloch Gorge in quick succession, etc.
Armstronglivs may be hard work to 'discuss' with, and has his own agenda that is the opposite of rekrunner/El Keniano, etc, but if you're going to argue against what he has said then you have to use what he has stated, not your interpretation.
If you click back to page 11, Armstronglivs wrote "at least two Kenyans are popped each week":
"I said Robertson was the first Kiwi distance runner busted for doping that I was aware of. So you found one other that I had never heard of, that, like Robertson, went to another country to dope. You have identified two New Zealand distance runners who have doped in 70 or so years. (New Zealand was also a top nation for running in the 60's and 70's). This year at least two Kenyans are popped each week. I would include Robertson amongst their tally."
Even if you want to count all sports (and now you should know that these 20 were from last year in the second half of 2022), it is not possible to justify "at least two each week".
But if the benchmark now is to count all sports, then by comparison, Kenya is not even in the top-10. The top-10 ADRVs for 2019, according to WADA, are Russia (167), Italy (157), India (152), Brazil (78), Iran (70), France (62), USA (62), Kazakhstan (49), Poland (47), and Ukraine (46).
Then #11 China (45), #12 UK (44), #13 Belgium (43), #14 South Africa (42), #15 Australia (33), #16 Spain (32)
Kenya was ranked #17, with 30 ADRVs, tied with #18 Korea (30). Italy, with a similar population, had 47 ADRVs just in cycling alone.
Why all this focus on the #17 country? Where are all these threads for all these other countries?
If we suppose "nation.africa" is right with 40 athletes for 2022, that puts them around #15.
You have argued it's "almost one a week". That's more than many other countries incur in a decade. So does Kenya have a serious doping problem or not? Both Kenyan Athletics and World Athletics agree that it does.
You have a serious problem with numbers. I don't argue for anything, but calculate published figures. I do argue against "at least two per week" because it is pure fan-fiction.
"Just dropping this here!" wants to count all sports -- if we do that then Kenya drops outside the top-15 countries. Italy, with a similar population as Kenya, actually had 3 ADRVs per week in 2019, and about 1 per week in cycling -- both of these are far more than Kenya. What do you think about that? Surely you say the same things about Italy in cycling forums, and surely you have triple the disgust for Italians as you do Kenyans, right?
Kenya has been p*ssing doping busts for years and you want to argue about the numbers ("is it two or just one a week?") as though that changes the fact it has one of the worst "doping diseases" and incurs more doping violations in a month than other countries do in a decade. But the disease is certainly enabled by the minimizers and deniers on these threads. They are as corrupt as those they seek to defend.
Two or one a week? Where did you get those numbers?
You claimed it's something like ~2.5/week in 2023 when the real number is probably more like 0.5/week. So something like a 400% exaggeration on your side. I have to admit, for you that must seem to be an accurate statement when often you are much more away from the real number.
Recently Kenya has had more doping violations than any other country, that's true. Also true is that Kenya has much more top runners than any other country.
Absolute numbers can't tell the full story. But surely I will fail in explaining this to someone who thinks a second in a 1500m is worth the same than a second in a 3000m (with the definitive consequence that a 10.58 in the 100m is worth the same as a 2:01:10 in the Marathon (btw., have you already solved the mystery about the . and the : in the times?)
I can rely on you to waffle on without adding anything apart from your efforts to try to minimize Kenyan doping. Kenyan doping is like a patient in emergency care; you (and rekrunner) try to argue it isn't really an emergency.
I fail to see where it says 'two Kenyan runners per week', distance or otherwise. Obviously you can guess that that's what he meant, but equally somebody else could guess that a lot of the posts on here are attempting to minimise the extent of doping in Kenya by changing the criteria against which it is being quantified; e.g. only athletics, or only people who are reported within a day or two of being busted, or only when the wind is blowing from the south, or only if the bust happens at the same time as 5 people jump into Chebloch Gorge in quick succession, etc.
Armstronglivs may be hard work to 'discuss' with, and has his own agenda that is the opposite of rekrunner/El Keniano, etc, but if you're going to argue against what he has said then you have to use what he has stated, not your interpretation.
If you click back to page 11, Armstronglivs wrote "at least two Kenyans are popped each week":
"I said Robertson was the first Kiwi distance runner busted for doping that I was aware of. So you found one other that I had never heard of, that, like Robertson, went to another country to dope. You have identified two New Zealand distance runners who have doped in 70 or so years. (New Zealand was also a top nation for running in the 60's and 70's). This year at least two Kenyans are popped each week. I would include Robertson amongst their tally."
Even if you want to count all sports (and now you should know that these 20 were from last year in the second half of 2022), it is not possible to justify "at least two each week".
But if the benchmark now is to count all sports, then by comparison, Kenya is not even in the top-10. The top-10 ADRVs for 2019, according to WADA, are Russia (167), Italy (157), India (152), Brazil (78), Iran (70), France (62), USA (62), Kazakhstan (49), Poland (47), and Ukraine (46).
Then #11 China (45), #12 UK (44), #13 Belgium (43), #14 South Africa (42), #15 Australia (33), #16 Spain (32)
Kenya was ranked #17, with 30 ADRVs, tied with #18 Korea (30). Italy, with a similar population, had 47 ADRVs just in cycling alone.
Why all this focus on the #17 country? Where are all these threads for all these other countries?
If we suppose "nation.africa" is right with 40 athletes for 2022, that puts them around #15.
All that you come up with, as you argue endlessly about the numbers, is that Kenyan doping isn't really so bad after all. Neither Kenyan Athletics (and the Kenyan government, which is proposing criminalising doping) and World Athletics agree with you. Nothing you dribble on about changes the seriousness of the Kenyan situation. I am surprised you aren't expressing your "sympathy" for Kenyans experiencing an "inappropriate coach-athlete situation" - which doping is. It is so vacuous a comment - you have used it previously - as to fit anything you talk about.
rekrunner - I'm not sure if you are aware, but we have these things called dates to keep track of the movement of time. The article was dated the 27th of March '23.
Basic comprehension seems to be a problem for you, so I will try to keep this simple so you can keep up.......... this article was the only announcement I had personally seen in the first 13 weeks of the year. As it referenced 20 busts that works out as 20 divided by 13, which is over 1.5 per week.
If such basic math/logic is still a struggle for you do please let me know and I'll go find some crayons to draw you a picture to help you understand.
All that you come up with, as you argue endlessly about the numbers, is that Kenyan doping isn't really so bad after all. Neither Kenyan Athletics (and the Kenyan government, which is proposing criminalising doping) and World Athletics agree with you. Nothing you dribble on about changes the seriousness of the Kenyan situation. I am surprised you aren't expressing your "sympathy" for Kenyans experiencing an "inappropriate coach-athlete situation" - which doping is. It is so vacuous a comment - you have used it previously - as to fit anything you talk about.
As I said, I know you have a serious hatred for numbers, and apparently lose count before you can even get to 1.
Sure it is a serious -- but the question is, can you put a number on it? The right answer is unquestionably NO. You tried, and failed, quite spectacularly, and rather than being a grownup and admit your error when significantly overstating the seriousness, you desperately change the subject to anything else -- Kara, feelings, Salazar, coach-athlete, sympathy, oh look! something shiny! Come on Dory, let's swim over the trench and follow it! -- as if feeble distractions and personal attacks can mask your intellectual fails. It's quite sad to see someone as emotionally invested in doping as you obviously are be so woefully and demonstrably uninformed and gullible.
I guess by now we can at least all agree that "at least two Kenyans per week" was so stupid, even you've abandoned it, and avoid owning that you said it like the bubonic plague.
If you click back to page 11, Armstronglivs wrote "at least two Kenyans are popped each week":
"I said Robertson was the first Kiwi distance runner busted for doping that I was aware of. So you found one other that I had never heard of, that, like Robertson, went to another country to dope. You have identified two New Zealand distance runners who have doped in 70 or so years. (New Zealand was also a top nation for running in the 60's and 70's). This year at least two Kenyans are popped each week. I would include Robertson amongst their tally."
Even if you want to count all sports (and now you should know that these 20 were from last year in the second half of 2022), it is not possible to justify "at least two each week".
But if the benchmark now is to count all sports, then by comparison, Kenya is not even in the top-10. The top-10 ADRVs for 2019, according to WADA, are Russia (167), Italy (157), India (152), Brazil (78), Iran (70), France (62), USA (62), Kazakhstan (49), Poland (47), and Ukraine (46).
Then #11 China (45), #12 UK (44), #13 Belgium (43), #14 South Africa (42), #15 Australia (33), #16 Spain (32)
Kenya was ranked #17, with 30 ADRVs, tied with #18 Korea (30). Italy, with a similar population, had 47 ADRVs just in cycling alone.
Why all this focus on the #17 country? Where are all these threads for all these other countries?
If we suppose "nation.africa" is right with 40 athletes for 2022, that puts them around #15.
All that you come up with, as you argue endlessly about the numbers, is that Kenyan doping isn't really so bad after all. Neither Kenyan Athletics (and the Kenyan government, which is proposing criminalising doping) and World Athletics agree with you. Nothing you dribble on about changes the seriousness of the Kenyan situation. I am surprised you aren't expressing your "sympathy" for Kenyans experiencing an "inappropriate coach-athlete situation" - which doping is. It is so vacuous a comment - you have used it previously - as to fit anything you talk about.
You sound like Trump. You lied, you know you lied, your lie was exposed, and instead of admitting you lied, you attack and insult the people who called you out.
rekrunner - I'm not sure if you are aware, but we have these things called dates to keep track of the movement of time. The article was dated the 27th of March '23.
Basic comprehension seems to be a problem for you, so I will try to keep this simple so you can keep up.......... this article was the only announcement I had personally seen in the first 13 weeks of the year. As it referenced 20 busts that works out as 20 divided by 13, which is over 1.5 per week.
If such basic math/logic is still a struggle for you do please let me know and I'll go find some crayons to draw you a picture to help you understand.
I get the math and logic just fine. It is just the wrong calculation for the rate of Kenyan suspensions per week. It is a calculation of the rate of 2022 suspensions that were announced in 2023.
Sure -- I can accept your claim of ignorance after your first post as a well-intentioned and honest, if not lazy, mistake, but since I've now linked two more related articles for you, from the same source "nation.africa", giving more information about these 20 suspensions, you no longer have an acceptable excuse that you haven't personally seen anything else.
The announcement of the 20 suspensions was made public on January 6, and "nation.africa" reported it then, making it public knowledge that the exact timeframe of these suspensions was from July 2022 to Jan 2023.
It is simply incorrect to use another timeframe than the one when these suspensions are known to have occurred. If you had seen an announcement in January that there were 52 deaths in car crashes last year, and that was the only thing you had personally seen, would you now claim there was 1 death per week in 2022, or 4 deaths per week in 2023?
Another problem with your math is that with each passing day i.e. "the movement of time", your calculation declines. Were this the first week of the year, before the 6 January announcement, you would have calculated "0 Kenyans per week!". After 1 week, you would say "20 Kenyans per week!". If we were posting this at the end of this week, your math drops again to 1.4 Kpw. If 7 more weeks pass with no new announcements, then it will drop further to 0.95 Kpw. All of these figures are incorrect, because you chose an incorrect model.
The only correct way to calculate the rate of suspensions per week is to count the suspensions and the number of weeks during the same timeframe which we know when they happened.
Two or one a week? Where did you get those numbers?
You claimed it's something like ~2.5/week in 2023 when the real number is probably more like 0.5/week. So something like a 400% exaggeration on your side. I have to admit, for you that must seem to be an accurate statement when often you are much more away from the real number.
Recently Kenya has had more doping violations than any other country, that's true. Also true is that Kenya has much more top runners than any other country.
Absolute numbers can't tell the full story. But surely I will fail in explaining this to someone who thinks a second in a 1500m is worth the same than a second in a 3000m (with the definitive consequence that a 10.58 in the 100m is worth the same as a 2:01:10 in the Marathon (btw., have you already solved the mystery about the . and the : in the times?)
I can rely on you to waffle on without adding anything apart from your efforts to try to minimize Kenyan doping. Kenyan doping is like a patient in emergency care; you (and rekrunner) try to argue it isn't really an emergency.
I know, correct numbers which don't fit your long before done conclusion for you are like a cruzifix for Dracula.
Pointing out that your claimed ~2.5 Kenyan busts per week in 2023 was completely wrong (probably something like 400% too high) is not at all an attempt to minimize Kenyan doping.
It's a serious issue, for sure. How big compared to the other nations? We don't have enough data to answer this. I'm pretty sure you agree that there also is doping in Ethiopia. But no positives? I have not followed your friend Zane's issue, but hasn't he got the EPO in Ethiopia? But your letsrun friend Coevett has told us many times you can buy EPO in any pharmacy in Kenya.
There is a big drug problem in New Zealand Rugby, correct? But the runners would never do such bad things? Apart from two twins (or just your friend?) who changed their life completely for success?
I can rely on you to waffle on without adding anything apart from your efforts to try to minimize Kenyan doping. Kenyan doping is like a patient in emergency care; you (and rekrunner) try to argue it isn't really an emergency.
I know, correct numbers which don't fit your long before done conclusion for you are like a cruzifix for Dracula.
Pointing out that your claimed ~2.5 Kenyan busts per week in 2023 was completely wrong (probably something like 400% too high) is not at all an attempt to minimize Kenyan doping.
It's a serious issue, for sure. How big compared to the other nations? We don't have enough data to answer this. I'm pretty sure you agree that there also is doping in Ethiopia. But no positives? I have not followed your friend Zane's issue, but hasn't he got the EPO in Ethiopia? But your letsrun friend Coevett has told us many times you can buy EPO in any pharmacy in Kenya.
There is a big drug problem in New Zealand Rugby, correct? But the runners would never do such bad things? Apart from two twins (or just your friend?) who changed their life completely for success?
Here comes the scientific racist to chime in. We don't know how big a problem doping is in Kenya compared to other countries, but we know for sure that Kenyans are an offshoot of Homo Sapiens with specially adapted running genes and aerodynamic small skulls.
rekrunner - I'm not sure if you are aware, but we have these things called dates to keep track of the movement of time. The article was dated the 27th of March '23.
Basic comprehension seems to be a problem for you, so I will try to keep this simple so you can keep up.......... this article was the only announcement I had personally seen in the first 13 weeks of the year. As it referenced 20 busts that works out as 20 divided by 13, which is over 1.5 per week.
If such basic math/logic is still a struggle for you do please let me know and I'll go find some crayons to draw you a picture to help you understand.
I get the math and logic just fine. It is just the wrong calculation for the rate of Kenyan suspensions per week. It is a calculation of the rate of 2022 suspensions that were announced in 2023.
Sure -- I can accept your claim of ignorance after your first post as a well-intentioned and honest, if not lazy, mistake, but since I've now linked two more related articles for you, from the same source "nation.africa", giving more information about these 20 suspensions, you no longer have an acceptable excuse that you haven't personally seen anything else.
The announcement of the 20 suspensions was made public on January 6, and "nation.africa" reported it then, making it public knowledge that the exact timeframe of these suspensions was from July 2022 to Jan 2023.
It is simply incorrect to use another timeframe than the one when these suspensions are known to have occurred. If you had seen an announcement in January that there were 52 deaths in car crashes last year, and that was the only thing you had personally seen, would you now claim there was 1 death per week in 2022, or 4 deaths per week in 2023?
Another problem with your math is that with each passing day i.e. "the movement of time", your calculation declines. Were this the first week of the year, before the 6 January announcement, you would have calculated "0 Kenyans per week!". After 1 week, you would say "20 Kenyans per week!". If we were posting this at the end of this week, your math drops again to 1.4 Kpw. If 7 more weeks pass with no new announcements, then it will drop further to 0.95 Kpw. All of these figures are incorrect, because you chose an incorrect model.
The only correct way to calculate the rate of suspensions per week is to count the suspensions and the number of weeks during the same timeframe which we know when they happened.
*yawn*
Your deliberate bs and attempted obfuscation are boring me now. Jog on.
You have argued it's "almost one a week". That's more than many other countries incur in a decade. So does Kenya have a serious doping problem or not? Both Kenyan Athletics and World Athletics agree that it does.
You have a serious problem with numbers. I don't argue for anything, but calculate published figures. I do argue against "at least two per week" because it is pure fan-fiction.
"Just dropping this here!" wants to count all sports -- if we do that then Kenya drops outside the top-15 countries. Italy, with a similar population as Kenya, actually had 3 ADRVs per week in 2019, and about 1 per week in cycling -- both of these are far more than Kenya. What do you think about that? Surely you say the same things about Italy in cycling forums, and surely you have triple the disgust for Italians as you do Kenyans, right?
And surely you are in those cycling forums 6 hours a day arguing that the reason for so many Italian busts is they have so many world class cylists, and anyway, EPO doesn't work?
So the only New Zealand runner busted in 50 years is the only (with his twin) NZ runner to move to Kenya to 'train like the Kenyans'.
Surely that must tell you something about the size of the doping problem in Kenya compared to other countries? That and more distance running busts in the last couple of years than the entire USA and Europe (not including the Moroccan immigrants) combined over the last 50 years?
When a Kenyan runner moves to the West and does well, it's proof Kenyans are an off shoot of humanity and have special adaptations for distance running.
When a white New Zealand runner moves to Kenya, does well but gets busted, it's proof that New Zealand has a doping problem.