Yeah course records are great. But they have a big luck component Our state meet has been held at the same course for decades.
There's no luck involved in German's Woodward Park record, and it's certainly not some random state record -- it's one of the most well-contested CRs in the nation. If someone was capable of breaking it, they would have.
Nico Young (multiple times), Colin Sahlman (multiple times), Leo Daschbach, Leo & Lex, ..., the list goes on.
For what it's worth, the performance also still holds the second highest non-championship speed rating ever at 209.00 (only behind Dathan's 14:10.4/210.53).
And while people are often quick to point out the Footlocker 3rd place, they rarely mention that (at 17 years & 3 months) he won the U.S. Junior Cross Country title.
He's one of the all-time great talents on any surface.
And how many of the greats from mich, ny, Oregon, ... Ever ran that course? Isn't peaking for nationals not some random race the goal? How many kids run junior XC?
No one in the current era can stack up to these guys in my mind. You know it when you see it and I haven't seen anyone in the last 10 years that just blows my mind with how they race compared to the competition like these guys did.
Sahlman definitely scales to these guys. Guys aren't so clear to me but if we rank the runners over who they beat
1. Lukas beat, Cheserek, Futsum, craig lutz, Rosa twins(all great hs and collegiate xc guys)
2. Colin: Young bros, his brother, 2 other sub 4 guys in the spring( best track credentials by far even if you account for super spikes)
3.Ritz destroyed sub 4 guy webb and ritz a 4:01 guy if I remember correctly( Arguably the most iconic victory although I prefer the race when rupp vs Withrow)
4. Lindgren hard to rank him I think either he is very comparable to Ritz or he absolutely would smash everyone with modern tech.
5. Virgin: also very hard to rank. I don't want to put too much weight on a solo record that Verbicas came within 2 seconds to(also solo) and that methner beat but lost to Nico in the national meet.
6. Cheserek - severely undertrained judging from his next season of NCAA xc beating 13:00 man Lawi lalang lol but he has his battles against the Rosa twins, Lukas, Futsum(severely underrated xc guy himself)
7. nico - Nothing he did puts him above cheserek for me
I just think Colin or Lukas have the tools to beat all of these guys using track credentials as the backbone to my placing of everyone. 3:56-8:33 speed or 3:59-8:29 speed Lukas ran 14:17 as a freshman If I remember correctly He was just a great efficient runner. The reason I have Colin below Lukas is because even with super spikes he couldn't beat some of his track times.
For girls I think tuohy had the best xc career obviously but if we could get them all to line up Mary Cain absolutely could beat Tuohy or any girl all time. There's nothing they can do to break a 4:24 miler.Baxter, Tuohy, Lane, Hutchins even ephraimson simply don't have the wheels to break a world championship finalist. If you guys Cain ran a 15:45 to simply get a qualifier for the track 5000 as a back up Imagine if she put more effort in
The criteria of a super vague. From 1979 to present, Reuben Reina has the fastest time on the course all of the greats have run, Balboa Park. But then again, it seems the swarm of 1970’s runners are forgotten about.
we are talking xc, which is hard to measure, unless world titles have been won (which they have) we must resort to their 8 lap times in the spring. considering they didn’t have the stacked invitationals and super tracks…..Chappa, Hulst, Kimball, Hunt and many more are not on this list because we weren’t alive back then.
I wonder if Byrd, Jordan, Bryant will be omitted from a GOAT list being made by voters who are being born 10 years from now?
Bird isn't even in the top 5 objectively speaking lol the GOAT is either Lebron or Jordan with Kareem very close behind
fkkfkfkfkf wrote: And how many of the greats from mich, ny, Oregon, ... Ever ran that course? Isn't peaking for nationals not some random race the goal? How many kids run junior XC?
How many of these non-CA 'greats' would you rank above Nico and Colin?
Obviously every CR is going to have a list of runners who didn’t run the course, but my statement that Woodward Park is one of the most well-tested is so clearly true.
And you’re right about junior XC; there are more D1 all-Americans than random high school ’kids’ running.
MI Strong wrote:
Fisher won Footlocker at 16 and 17 years old.
I'm not sure why you quoted me to say this? I think Fisher has also has a case as an all-time great.
My point isn't to say that German is better than X runner or that he needs to be in anyone's top list; it's only that he has an objectively good case (on XC credentials alone) to be in this discussion, which is what "fkkfkfkfkf" doesn't seem to understand.
3:55 in high school in 1965 on a crappy track with lousy shoes for training and racing!!!
Do you really think anyone could have done that now?
It took Webb in high school paced at The Prefontaine Classic 30+ years later to break it.
Out of site, out of mind I guess. Hilarious.
The question was about cross country, not track.
You could actually argue Jim Ryun's runs on a crappy track are relevant to this thread if raw times are considered, as a cinder track surface just might be a slower surface than some of these modern "XC" courses. Jim Ryun was running crazy fast HS mile times on modern day XC courses! Joking... kind of.
fkkfkfkfkf wrote: And how many of the greats from mich, ny, Oregon, ... Ever ran that course? Isn't peaking for nationals not some random race the goal? How many kids run junior XC?
How many of these non-CA 'greats' would you rank above Nico and Colin?
Obviously every CR is going to have a list of runners who didn’t run the course, but my statement that Woodward Park is one of the most well-tested is so clearly true.
And you’re right about junior XC; there are more D1 all-Americans than random high school ’kids’ running.
MI Strong wrote:
Fisher won Footlocker at 16 and 17 years old.
I'm not sure why you quoted me to say this? I think Fisher has also has a case as an all-time great.
My point isn't to say that German is better than X runner or that he needs to be in anyone's top list; it's only that he has an objectively good case (on XC credentials alone) to be in this discussion, which is what "fkkfkfkfkf" doesn't seem to understand.
All of them. LV, ritz, Fisher, ches, Lindgren, and the rest of the contenders for XC goat. Nico slots into that second tier of 6-10.
GF was good. But if you don't have at least 1 national title you don't get consideration when we have guys with 2. And we haven't even talked about all the really good guys with only 1. Was GF better than Reiana, Davis, goucher, or Solinsky? Hard to make an argument for a guy who got pounded by like 20s . And it wasn't like his junior year performance was good either.
All of them. LV, ritz, Fisher, ches, Lindgren, and the rest of the contenders for XC goat. Nico slots into that second tier of 6-10.
GF was good. But if you don't have at least 1 national title you don't get consideration when we have guys with 2.
Ah, yes, who could forget the many XC titles Lindgren won.
It’s almost as if the notion of a ‘national title’ — which didn’t even exist for many and is of increasingly questionable value — can’t be the only consideration.
All of them. LV, ritz, Fisher, ches, Lindgren, and the rest of the contenders for XC goat. Nico slots into that second tier of 6-10.
GF was good. But if you don't have at least 1 national title you don't get consideration when we have guys with 2.
Ah, yes, who could forget the many XC titles Lindgren won.
It’s almost as if the notion of a ‘national title’ — which didn’t even exist for many and is of increasingly questionable value — can’t be the only consideration.
You don't think there is a pretty obvious difference between not having a chance (i.e. those 60/70s runners) and failing(i.e. everyone else in the post footlocker era)? As I said it makes evaluating those guys hard. I wouldn't be shocked to learn I am undervaluing virgin, pre Hulst, and the like cause they don't have multiple titles. But what can you do. It is easy to make an exception for a dominant XC runner who made the Olympic 10k team later that year. A bit harder for guys a bit farther down on the list.
Against a field primarily consisting of 16-17yo runners. The majority of high school seniors are not 18 in December.
Incorrect.
The majority of HS senior male athletes are 18 and sometimes even 19 in December of their senior year.
If you don’t believe this, take the time to look at the past 10 years of make HS runners running the fast times (sub 4 mile, fast 800m, sprints) they are doing so when they as 19 year olds.
Against a field primarily consisting of 16-17yo runners. The majority of high school seniors are not 18 in December.
Incorrect.
The majority of HS senior male athletes are 18 and sometimes even 19 in December of their senior year.
If you don’t believe this, take the time to look at the past 10 years of make HS runners running the fast times (sub 4 mile, fast 800m, sprints) they are doing so when they as 19 year olds.
I’m fairly certain you’re being facetious to make a point, but obviously ~97% of high school seniors are 17 or 18 in December of their SR year and there may be more 16 year olds than 19 year olds.
There have been 5 boys who’ve repeated as Footlocker champions. 3/5 did it at 16/17 (Fisher, Verzbicas and Ritz, with Fisher the youngest of the 3), 1/5 did it at 17/18 (Cheserek, who was 19 when he graduated) and 1/5 I could not easily find a DOB for (Abdirizak Mohamud).
The majority of HS senior male athletes are 18 and sometimes even 19 in December of their senior year.
If you don’t believe this, take the time to look at the past 10 years of make HS runners running the fast times (sub 4 mile, fast 800m, sprints) they are doing so when they as 19 year olds.
I’m fairly certain you’re being facetious to make a point, but obviously ~97% of high school seniors are 17 or 18 in December of their SR year and there may be more 16 year olds than 19 year olds.
There have been 5 boys who’ve repeated as Footlocker champions. 3/5 did it at 16/17 (Fisher, Verzbicas and Ritz, with Fisher the youngest of the 3), 1/5 did it at 17/18 (Cheserek, who was 19 when he graduated) and 1/5 I could not easily find a DOB for (Abdirizak Mohamud).
Who cares? Grant Fisher is definitely not in the GOAT discussion. I'd say senior year Drew Hunter was better than senior year Grant Fisher. I don't think Grant set any meaningful records did he? But he was very good for sure and definitely a name you don't miss in the all time greats conversation.
And stop saying Craig Virgin. Josh Methner broke Virgin's 40 year IL state course record and got SLAUGHTERED by Nico at NXN....the year when Nico set the mf national course record in the mud. Someone earlier in this thread saying that Cheserek was better than Nico?? LOL Cheserek is not in the GOAT discussion whatsoever.
So with that, I am eliminating Virgin and Fisher and Cheserek from the HS GOAT XC discussion.