Cross country only. I think Nico over Verzbicas. Nico was so big that he kind of changed the game. It was the start of a new era and we have been seeing kids from all over the country really step up their game since Nico graduated. His senior year he was so much better than everyone else that everyone knew he would win nationals and he dominated them over a insanely stacked field at NXN in the mud and set a course record. In the mud at nationals...course record. Verzbicas was such a beast and undefeated in XC but I think that he lacked the amount of heart that Nico had. Obviously Ritz is 3rd. Then I'd say Sahlman 4th but I know there's a lot of guys deserving of that #4 ranking.
Cross country only. I think Nico over Verzbicas. Nico was so big that he kind of changed the game. It was the start of a new era and we have been seeing kids from all over the country really step up their game since Nico graduated. His senior year he was so much better than everyone else that everyone knew he would win nationals and he dominated them over a insanely stacked field at NXN in the mud and set a course record. In the mud at nationals...course record. Verzbicas was such a beast and undefeated in XC but I think that he lacked the amount of heart that Nico had. Obviously Ritz is 3rd. Then I'd say Sahlman 4th but I know there's a lot of guys deserving of that #4 ranking.
1. Nico
2. Verzbicas
3. Ritz
4. Sahlman
No Virgin? No Fisher? Why is Ritz "{o}bviously" 3rd and not 1st, 2nd, 4th, or 5th?
No Virgin? No Fisher? Why is Ritz "{o}bviously" 3rd and not 1st, 2nd, 4th, or 5th?
Recency bias. Last I checked Nico didn't win footlocker 2x or place high at world's. And it is pretty much impossible to rate the prefootlocker guys. It is just too hard when the top guys rarely race. If Rupp or GF didn't lose at footlocker, we would all think they were much better XC runners.
this post got me to go back and look at past footlocker results and man there are some names that seems so promising but disappeared in college. Matt Withrow being a big one.
Cross country only. I think Nico over Verzbicas. Nico was so big that he kind of changed the game. It was the start of a new era and we have been seeing kids from all over the country really step up their game since Nico graduated. His senior year he was so much better than everyone else that everyone knew he would win nationals and he dominated them over a insanely stacked field at NXN in the mud and set a course record. In the mud at nationals...course record. Verzbicas was such a beast and undefeated in XC but I think that he lacked the amount of heart that Nico had. Obviously Ritz is 3rd. Then I'd say Sahlman 4th but I know there's a lot of guys deserving of that #4 ranking.
1. Nico
2. Verzbicas
3. Ritz
4. Sahlman
In about two and a half months this will no longer be a question. No one will be asking who the second greatest is either.
But for now, I think there's a pool of guys who all could have a case made for being the greatest, although it's pretty difficult to argue for one specific guy being the best. My list would be: Virgin, Ritz, Fernandez, Verzbicas, Fisher, Nico, and Sahlman. There are plenty of things you could say/argue to flip this order one way or another to make your argument for who's on top, but that seems like a bit of a fool's errend. I'm a fool though so here goes.
Sahlman was 10 seconds off Nicos woodbridge record, and was 2 second's off Fernandez' Woodward park record. He's out.
Virgin's Illinois state meet course record was bested by Methner, who was beat by over 14 seconds by Nico at NXN.
Fisher, although a back to back national champ, never really ran fast enough, or beat impressive enough competition to place him at the top.
Lukas verzbicas is the same deal. Extremely impressive Footlocker, NXN, and Footlocket wins, but failed to break Virgins Detweiler park record, and failed to come close to the course records at either national meet.
Although his solo 14:24 was pretty insane, German Fernandez didn't really have any other all-time goat status races under his belt. He got 3rd (albeit sick) at Footlocker his senior year, and didn't even go to natties as a junior. Although the stuff he did accomplish was pretty impressive considering he was a year young.
There were also those two guys who ran 14:40/39 on Balboa, but those were kind of their only important performances so I don't think there up there with the rest.
This just leaves, imho, Nico and Ritz left in the discussion. Both of their senior seasons were pretty much without blemishes. Ritz got the 5k record on a fast course, Nico got the 3 mile. Ritz set the course record at nationals in Orlando (albeit his junior year), Nico set the NXN record. Both were undefeated. Both completely dusted their competition at every race, including future sub 4 guys. (Webb and Daschbach) Both completely ran away from the field at nationals. Really the only knocks I could give these guys were that Nico failed to get German's course record, and Ritz failed to get his own Orlando record, but both stated it was not their intention to go all out at either of those races, and they were holding back. The tiebreaker for me is Ritz' bronze medal at world juniors. This puts my ranking at
Ritz 1
Nico 2
the rest 3
Kinda funny how this isn't even a debate on the girls' side because Tuohy was so good.
Cross country only. I think Nico over Verzbicas. Nico was so big that he kind of changed the game. It was the start of a new era and we have been seeing kids from all over the country really step up their game since Nico graduated. His senior year he was so much better than everyone else that everyone knew he would win nationals and he dominated them over a insanely stacked field at NXN in the mud and set a course record. In the mud at nationals...course record. Verzbicas was such a beast and undefeated in XC but I think that he lacked the amount of heart that Nico had. Obviously Ritz is 3rd. Then I'd say Sahlman 4th but I know there's a lot of guys deserving of that #4 ranking.
1. Nico
2. Verzbicas
3. Ritz
4. Sahlman
In about two and a half months this will no longer be a question. No one will be asking who the second greatest is either.
But for now, I think there's a pool of guys who all could have a case made for being the greatest, although it's pretty difficult to argue for one specific guy being the best. My list would be: Virgin, Ritz, Fernandez, Verzbicas, Fisher, Nico, and Sahlman. There are plenty of things you could say/argue to flip this order one way or another to make your argument for who's on top, but that seems like a bit of a fool's errend. I'm a fool though so here goes.
Sahlman was 10 seconds off Nicos woodbridge record, and was 2 second's off Fernandez' Woodward park record. He's out.
Virgin's Illinois state meet course record was bested by Methner, who was beat by over 14 seconds by Nico at NXN.
Fisher, although a back to back national champ, never really ran fast enough, or beat impressive enough competition to place him at the top.
Lukas verzbicas is the same deal. Extremely impressive Footlocker, NXN, and Footlocket wins, but failed to break Virgins Detweiler park record, and failed to come close to the course records at either national meet.
Although his solo 14:24 was pretty insane, German Fernandez didn't really have any other all-time goat status races under his belt. He got 3rd (albeit sick) at Footlocker his senior year, and didn't even go to natties as a junior. Although the stuff he did accomplish was pretty impressive considering he was a year young.
There were also those two guys who ran 14:40/39 on Balboa, but those were kind of their only important performances so I don't think there up there with the rest.
This just leaves, imho, Nico and Ritz left in the discussion. Both of their senior seasons were pretty much without blemishes. Ritz got the 5k record on a fast course, Nico got the 3 mile. Ritz set the course record at nationals in Orlando (albeit his junior year), Nico set the NXN record. Both were undefeated. Both completely dusted their competition at every race, including future sub 4 guys. (Webb and Daschbach) Both completely ran away from the field at nationals. Really the only knocks I could give these guys were that Nico failed to get German's course record, and Ritz failed to get his own Orlando record, but both stated it was not their intention to go all out at either of those races, and they were holding back. The tiebreaker for me is Ritz' bronze medal at world juniors. This puts my ranking at
Ritz 1
Nico 2
the rest 3
Kinda funny how this isn't even a debate on the girls' side because Tuohy was so good.
I would put Ches above Fisher. Both are 2x Foot Locker champions, but Ches ran 14:52 vs Fisher 15:03. Ches 14:53 at Holmdel as a Junior is very strong as well and he has an NXN runner up as a Sophomore.
Fisher beat some pretty exceptional competition. John Dressel was a stud, Maton (sub 4 guy in high school), and don't forget Drew Hunter (who some people had said was one of the best HS runners ever). And Fisher beat them all twice. Incredibly easily the 2nd time.
Fisher beat some pretty exceptional competition. John Dressel was a stud, Maton (sub 4 guy in high school), and don't forget Drew Hunter (who some people had said was one of the best HS runners ever). And Fisher beat them all twice. Incredibly easily the 2nd time.
Exceptional competition is stretching it. Junior year John Dressel was solid, but nothing crazy for a runner up. Maton ran sub 4, but was not as good at cross. Drew Hunter was a junior, if they raced as seniors it would have been a great race. Fairly weak competition when you look at it tbh, but im sure Fisher would have elevated had he faced better runners.
this post got me to go back and look at past footlocker results and man there are some names that seems so promising but disappeared in college. Matt Withrow being a big one.
He was 4x all american in cross I think? He also struggled with injuries throughout college and seemed to thrive off the high mileage he did in high school. Withrow was obviously very talented but he got a lot out of his ability at a young age.
this post got me to go back and look at past footlocker results and man there are some names that seems so promising but disappeared in college. Matt Withrow being a big one.
He was 4x all american in cross I think? He also struggled with injuries throughout college and seemed to thrive off the high mileage he did in high school. Withrow was obviously very talented but he got a lot out of his ability at a young age.
If I remember right he had an awesome redshirt year (unfortunately for WI). Figured it was an injury/ burnout issue. Wisconsin was so stacked back then it was probably easy to fall behind others on the team after one injury hiccup.