Literally just consistently running 5-6 days a week can take a mediocre talent down to 18 minutes.
This board again proves it has no perspective on what normal talent is. My son’s team has shown up in national discussions and is expected to win state. My point is that the coaches know what they are doing.
Only a quarter of the team has broken 18 so far and only half have broken 20.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think the majority of HS boys won’t ever break 18 despite running 5-6 days a week with better coaching than just going out and running.
I went back to last year and pulled a random classification from a random state. Less than 1/4 of the boys broke 18 in the whole year. The midpoint was just under 20.
I don’t disagree with OP’s general point that his school is way too slow, but talent isn’t what some here seem to think it is.
Exactly. I guarantee the coach has the kids doing anaerobic intervals 2-3x per week since August and thinks 20 miles per week is a lot.
the vo2 and faster intervals are way overdone. but it's also difficult for 21+ minute boys to run a lot more than 20 miles per week. we are talking about very weak running talent at that level.
if they aren't putting in the work over the summer, forget about it.
I thought my team was average compared to other teams, but we’d probably average 17:00 in good years and 17:45-18:00 in bad years.
Not having one male below 21 is horrible. To be honest, I don’t even know how that’s possible. If you run 25 mpw and race often, you’ll be in sub 21 shape easily.
sorry. this is just not true, unless you are running fast courses. sub 21 on a track or similarly fast terrain, yes.
people really do lack perspective on how little talent some have.
Literally just consistently running 5-6 days a week can take a mediocre talent down to 18 minutes.
This board again proves it has no perspective on what normal talent is. My son’s team has shown up in national discussions and is expected to win state. My point is that the coaches know what they are doing.
Only a quarter of the team has broken 18 so far and only half have broken 20.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think the majority of HS boys won’t ever break 18 despite running 5-6 days a week with better coaching than just going out and running.
I agree that "anyone can run 18 minutes with a little training" is a severe overstatement, but any decent sized team (I'm thinking 20+) should have somebody (probably multiple somebodies) who can break 18 if coaching is adequate.
I think that if you have any athletic background, sub 21 should be easy. If you’ve played (for example) soccer or lacrosse in middle school, you should be able to break 21.
Also, I know there are talent gaps, but I feel like what you’re talking about is equivalent to flipping a coin 15 times and getting all heads. Maybe it’s true in economically disadvantaged districts, but pretty much every suburban / average income school will have a lot of people breaking 21. My freshman year, there were ~30 people on my XC team, and 18-20 broke 21 at one point, even on hilly courses.
Exactly. I guarantee the coach has the kids doing anaerobic intervals 2-3x per week since August and thinks 20 miles per week is a lot.
the vo2 and faster intervals are way overdone. but it's also difficult for 21+ minute boys to run a lot more than 20 miles per week. we are talking about very weak running talent at that level.
if they aren't putting in the work over the summer, forget about it.
My kid decided to go out for XC this season. He didn't run over the summer and started with the team after labor day. His longest continuous run has been a 2 mile run in about 20+ minutes with a few other beginners. This is in between his short hilll repeats one day or 200s all out the other day. My wife told me to keep my mouth shut so I'm staying out of it but I doubt he'll break 22 minutes for a while. His first meet isn't until October and I doubt the mileage will increase much.
Why do coaches that perform poorly for many years keep their jobs? Assuming the athletic director notices the poor placing of the team for many years, is it because the AD doesn't think they could find another coach?
Why do coaches that perform poorly for many years keep their jobs? Assuming the athletic director notices the poor placing of the team for many years, is it because the AD doesn't think they could find another coach?
Why do coaches that perform poorly for many years keep their jobs? Assuming the athletic director notices the poor placing of the team for many years, is it because the AD doesn't think they could find another coach?
Most ADs dont care about the "success" of the XC and track program. For many schools what's more important 60 happy kids on a team that comes in 5th place or 20 happy kids on a team that wins its division?
7) Return to step one, repeat cycle, before track season.
I like this^
As a coach I have always said that when you have a great team everyone thinks you have inherited talent. When you have a slow team, it is your fault.
I have had a championship level team for 14 out of the 15 years I have coached. That one year was rough. Sometimes there is not much you can do. For most high school coaches you can not control who walks through that door each year.
Why do coaches that perform poorly for many years keep their jobs? Assuming the athletic director notices the poor placing of the team for many years, is it because the AD doesn't think they could find another coach?
Many school districts have rules in place that require the AD to hire a teacher or staff member instead of an outside coach. So, while there may be a local roadie or a former collegiate athlete in town that would like to coach, often times the job goes to a teacher that once walked a marathon or did a Couch-to-5K and that really wants that extra stipend money. They don’t know how to coach, how to write a proper training plan, nor do they have any competition experience. They’re just babysitting for extra cash.
7) Return to step one, repeat cycle, before track season.
I like this^
As a coach I have always said that when you have a great team everyone thinks you have inherited talent. When you have a slow team, it is your fault.
I have had a championship level team for 14 out of the 15 years I have coached. That one year was rough. Sometimes there is not much you can do. For most high school coaches you can not control who walks through that door each year.
If a kid joins but doesn't have a base what type of training would you do? It would be nice for my own son to be doing longer than 2 mile runs. My son told me that 7 kids on his team (of 15) are hurt, perhaps 200s all out and hill repeats aren't a great idea in the first week of training.
If the pattern repeats every year perhaps it is coaching.
As a coach I have always said that when you have a great team everyone thinks you have inherited talent. When you have a slow team, it is your fault.
I have had a championship level team for 14 out of the 15 years I have coached. That one year was rough. Sometimes there is not much you can do. For most high school coaches you can not control who walks through that door each year.
If a kid joins but doesn't have a base what type of training would you do? It would be nice for my own son to be doing longer than 2 mile runs. My son told me that 7 kids on his team (of 15) are hurt, perhaps 200s all out and hill repeats aren't a great idea in the first week of training.
If the pattern repeats every year perhaps it is coaching.
In that situation the season is basically lost for that kid. With that athlete, they will run and race. No workouts. They can get through the workouts, but it will not help them make gains or they will get injured doing them. This athlete will improve and sometimes dramatically because they were untrained, but they will not reach anywhere close to their potential.
My goal is always to build the culture for the team to get the "buy in" for the summer and season. No matter what you do, some will not train. You'll get some that don't value the training. But if you have the "buy in" then your veterans will drive the workload. That's when you have your team in gear. When our team is having a good year, our captains are the driving force and I only have to step in every now and then to get things back on track.
I agree with you. If you go a few years with no results for an XC team of 15 something is broken there.
If a kid joins but doesn't have a base what type of training would you do? It would be nice for my own son to be doing longer than 2 mile runs. My son told me that 7 kids on his team (of 15) are hurt, perhaps 200s all out and hill repeats aren't a great idea in the first week of training.
If the pattern repeats every year perhaps it is coaching.
In that situation the season is basically lost for that kid. With that athlete, they will run and race. No workouts. They can get through the workouts, but it will not help them make gains or they will get injured doing them. This athlete will improve and sometimes dramatically because they were untrained, but they will not reach anywhere close to their potential.
My goal is always to build the culture for the team to get the "buy in" for the summer and season. No matter what you do, some will not train. You'll get some that don't value the training. But if you have the "buy in" then your veterans will drive the workload. That's when you have your team in gear. When our team is having a good year, our captains are the driving force and I only have to step in every now and then to get things back on track.
I agree with you. If you go a few years with no results for an XC team of 15 something is broken there.
At the end of the first year of coaching at a school a colleague asked how it went. I replied "I'll tell you at the end of the summer." If the girls ran I knew I did a good job, if they didn't then the year was not successful.
Regarding my son, his first race will be October 1st and his 4th and last race November 5th. I'm just hoping he makes it to that last race healthy and breaks 22.
Why do coaches that perform poorly for many years keep their jobs? Assuming the athletic director notices the poor placing of the team for many years, is it because the AD doesn't think they could find another coach?
Many school districts have rules in place that require the AD to hire a teacher or staff member instead of an outside coach. So, while there may be a local roadie or a former collegiate athlete in town that would like to coach, often times the job goes to a teacher that once walked a marathon or did a Couch-to-5K and that really wants that extra stipend money. They don’t know how to coach, how to write a proper training plan, nor do they have any competition experience. They’re just babysitting for extra cash.
This is so true but sad. It really robs a lot of kids of an opportunity to see what they could’ve done in the sport. Unless you are a super talent if you are doing completely wrong training you physically won’t be able to run a decent time.
I know school are up and down, but come on, man. It's no wonder I still have all the records, and I set them BEFORE the last LA Olympics.
I still have my high school records from '83-'87 including in yards because we still had a 440y cinder track. There was a 320 student enrollment when I was a Freshman. One event I refused to run was the 4X400 (or 4X440y when we had a time trial) if one of the other top four fastest guys, "W", was going to run it because his uncle killed my aunt. It was hard to go to school with him and his brother.
I have a lot of stories from those days. The school is completely different now. It is at 2,000 enrollment and continuing to grow as housing is going up too fast. When I started in '83, I was one of the 15% minority students but today those demographics have changed to 50% "Hispanic." The White enrollment is at 30% and becoming smaller.
There are a couple of guys who can break 18 in a XC 5K but the first XC race I ran in '83 I broke 16 and put a lot of pressure on myself to always have a "fast" race when I was best at 800/1600. I remember having so much fun in the summer of '83 running, biking, swimming how I wanted to and watching track on TV including the exciting Helsinki World Championships. Last year, I found my running journals from the '80s and some old films and tapes.