Norwegian Training Approach - Threshold Focused

Once you do it a couple of times, it's not too hard. Maybe not easy. I've done sprint tests about 25 times so far, so I'm starting to get it.

I have my lactate meter and everything staged at the end of the sprint distance so I can immediately sit down and begin the passive phase of the test.

I warm up 10-15 minutes with light jogging. After the warmup, I sit for at least 2 minutes and take a baseline lactate reading.

After getting the baseline reading, I'll walk to the start of the sprint distance and wait another minute before beginning the test.

I use lap at the start and finish of the sprint test. I'm not too concerned with fractional seconds. I round up. And since everything is set up at the end of the sprint, I only take a few steps after the sprint, so no real impact on the data.

Immediately after the sprint I sit down and begin prepping to take samples. I usually take samples at 1, 2, 3, 5, 7 minutes after the test (or just 1, 3, 5 minutes if I'm doing multiple sprints), or until I see a rise and fall of lactate to estimate a peak concentration.

That's about it.

The difficult part is estimating where the peak power/speed drop off happens (usually considered at a 3.5% drop from peak in most papers) to determine Talac in the VLaMax calculation. Here I use an upper and lower bound estimation. I need to find a good way to record reliable speed data at at least 1hz.

To answer your other questions, for s tutorial pretty sure Stephen Seiler posted one on his Twitter going through the prep and steps.

As for a calculator, i know theres a really nice excel sheet someone put together that has a lot of nice features you can play with (equivalent performance, heat adjustments for performances, etc).

JI is running 180Km per week. That is more mileage than Peter Snell was running.

The high volume of threshold work probably needs more easy running than less.

JI does run high volume but his long run is fairly short. Only like 20km if I remember correctly. I imagine that it varies but I doubt he is running 20 mile long runs.

This type of training works best if you have the ACE ll version. It gives you lots of capillaries without training so the lactate wont interfere to much. You also need to have a an okay lung capacity. Also 40% of us have 50% slower lactate clearance than the rest (MCT1). For us it is important to take bicarbonate so we can reap the benefits as well.

Thank you for your explanation.

The Stryd pod could be helpful for you. You see the peak power and drop there.

You're welcome!

I have a couple Stryds. They are useless for sprinting (and I say that as someone who finds Stryd incredibly useful). You don't get power data for about 5 seconds after you start sprinting. It's how their algo smooths the data. Pace data isn't responsive enough either.

I am going to try using my GoPro to record the sprints. I'll have cones set up every 10m to get better incremental time. I have looked into purchasing some expensive measuring equipment, but I haven't committed yet.

I do this as a hobby. If I were to start testing other people, I would probably drop 3-5k on a portable precision measuring system. I'd be able to test anywhere the ground is generally paved/compacted and flat.

You were talking about peak power and the drop of it. It is of course possible to measure that. I have a Polar Vantage watch and there is no averaging it provides the data 1:1. Even if the peak power would be delayed (but value correct) you could use it. You have to turn of the averaging.

I am interested to hear more about this. What level/training age does one start implementing double threshold days into their training? Surely this is mostly being done by the elite Norwegian athletes. If so, what are junior/sub-elite Norwegian athletes doing and how quickly are they progressing to this amount of intensity?
I suppose in a way the 5x6' [1'] type sessions at MP are almost supplemental to the harder threshold sessions (10x1000 [1'] @T and 25x400 [30"] @10k) in that they would be added to a program after a base of these weekly harder threshold sessions has been established.

If you put that in %CV (critical velocity) terms:

- 5x6min @90% CV

- 10x1000m @95%CV

- 25x400m @99% CV

So all these high intensity interval sessions are between 90%CV and CV. Interestingly the same total volume for all different intensities. Kipchoge guys are reducing their total volume if they train with higher intensities. This seems to be a difference in this respect.

Ingebrigtsen decoded.

In the Simen Halle-Haugen podcast, he mentions his sisters just starting to double this year with the threshold sessions (4:16and 4:19 as U20). He didn't start them a bit later too.
That question was actually specifically asked and he said that there isn't really a specific mileage requirement or moment where you start doubling. It is mostly centered around whether you can handle it or not. By handling it, they mean the recovery portion. A lot of the Norwegian groups put a huge emphasis on the recovery between sessions so they can absorb the training. If they have too many distractions with schooling or work, they do not engage in the doubling of threshold sessions. Jakob, Simen, and many others have put their in-person schooling on hold in order to pursue athletics full-time.
Also, the "harder" threshold sessions aren't necessary more difficult at all. They are faster paces, but that is only because they are shorter repetitions and need to be that way to generate enough lactate to be at the right level. If you do 25x400 @ 10k pace w/ 30 sec rest, that is a whole different ball game than something like 10x1000m @ 10k w/ 1:30 rest, despite being lower overall volume. In fact, the podcast even mentions how at some point those 400s in particular get "fast" enough to where it becomes almost pre-specific work for the event (from a mechanical point of view). They do not care about the speed at which they are running--only the lactate measurement. As you get faster, the pace needed to achieve that will naturally get faster as well.
One interesting tidbit I picked up from listening was actually how Norwegians who are focusing on the 10000m, or longer distances, WILL do continuous tempo running. Most of the time it is in a broken up format, but they still do believe in non-stop threshold work in order to get used to the mental grind of certain events.
The reason why I have mentioned this podcast and training group twice now is that many of the questions that people ask about are answered across the two part series. They even go into specifics on how to read lactate measurements, how to establish a baseline, and how to interpret your lactate profile changing overtime. Almost all the Scandinavian groups do the same thing nowadays in the base phase--including team Ingebrigsten. The well-kept secrets are the event specific phase. No one wants to share that.

Podcast was really great, thanks for sharing.

"The aim for every runner here in Norway is... to have as much volume at the highest speed your body can handle."

Useful quote.

We can argue about specific %s of CV etc, but as Simen Halle-Haugen says in the podcast, they feel it's better to go 10secs/km too slow than a couple of seconds too fast. I think that's because they're not directly thinking about pace, just intensity, so any attempt to translate what they do to specific pace ranges will be at best, difficult.

I'm not a great runner (41, 2:40 marathon) but I've tried this a bit and found it quite interesting. Mechanically it allows me to achieve more fast running than a more traditional week, which is useful, and doing that first session of 5x6mins on the treadmill forces me to think seriously about the intensity I am running at, as I know I have to come back later that day and do it all again.

The last time I raced a marathon in Februrary my average heart rate was 160 (max is 180).
Yesterday I ran 5x6mins (2mins) on the treadmill in the morning, and 8x2.5mins (90secs jog) in the afternoon.
First rep of the morning session was around 148bpm, last rep was around 160 average.
In the afternoon I was low 150s for the first rep, and averaged 160bpm for the final rep. I topped out at 166 in both sessions. Total mileage for the day was 23km, of which just over 15km was at or above MP - I don't think I could have achieved that in one session on a work day, or if I did, I would be very tired the next day.

For me, it's quite convenient - 1hr in the morning and 45mins in the afternoon is less of a burden than finding a near 2hr block to do the same thing in one session.

Talk of "diminishing returns" is for hobby joggers. At World Class level you want ALL the returns.

I'm interested in this and thinking about changing tomorrows workout from a 20min tempo to the 5*6min w 1minR.

So, to dumb it down for me, is something like Daniel's MP a good target for the running intervals?

It seems kind of slow to me, but maybe i wont say that after the workout

I guess it doesn't matter too much but jog not walk the 1min rests?

Thanks for any help!

I think you misunderstand. Stryd is not the right tool at all for sprinting if you want ANY sort of precision or accuracy. The Stryd averages the data it provides on a second by second basis so you still get smoothed data by default. You can verify this by going to their FB group and searching for sprint. It’s ok, the device has use elsewhere in running.

I do this on my bike, too, and the power tap hub and Assioma pedals provide the appropriate data, however it’s still not ideal. You need to have an SRM power meter reading at more than 1hz to get ideal data.

It is more it gives you negative returns. The recovery from the LR prevents you from doing the more beneficial workout. Try to write out a schedule with 2 threshold days, an x day and then a 20mile long run. The benefits of running 20miles instead of 8 isn't worth the recovery cost

It is like mileage. You do it when your ready. If you are doing 2 thresholds/week, an x day, and doing a bunch of easy mileage and handling, you can start thinking about adding more work.

Well, Gjert Ingebrigtsen, by my understanding, doesn't think that way. I watched all the episodes of "Team Ingebrigtsen" and have learned his opinions in other places, too, and he sometimes said that he strives to have his trainees do "just enough."

The Lydiard system was different. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that 5K runners should do 20 mile long runs.