the specific 46,XY DSDs covered by the IAAF/WA's current DSD regulations who were thought to be "female at birth" based on the outward appearance of their genitals in early infancy end up changing their gender identities to male during or after puberty of adolescence.
This is not quite accurate. IAAF estimated 58-63% of people with 5-ard ended up changing their gender identity after puberty. (para 498 below). However, that's only one of the DSDs covered by their rule. People with PAIS (another category covered by their DSD rule) are far more likely to retain their female identity.
Agree with both of the above and didn’t say anything to the contrary.
Really? I thought your argument was that the low t-level of some men WAS relevant because it created overlap with the women's level.
If the low t-level of men is irrelevant, and the high t-level of people with PCOS or CAIS is irrelevant, then the t-level is a very reliable marker to decide the eligibility in women's sports.
A few more things from Chand and Semenya cases with CAS.
I had expressed agreement in this context, to quote you “in this discussion… It is not whether some people with t-level lower than normal male range can compete with men.”. Nobody has argued against excluding anyone from the stronger category (men) because that would make no sense.
T level is an imperfect discriminator because it doesn’t reliably predict performance. It does in some sports or events but not others. I included references to the relevant studies earlier that were commissioned by IAAF and caused their rule book to change from 2016 to 2019.
I don’t think IAAF and CAS are particularly unfair and didn’t imply that either. They are a lot closer to the mark in recognizing sex and gender are non-binary, dropping sex verification entirely, and at least trying to adapt to the state of the art science on the topic.
In any case, does it matter whether someone with DSD identifes as male or female?
No, and not in the letter or spirit of the IAAF rulebook. Identification matters by definition for trans but not DSD. DSD challenges the sex binary itself, so identification as one or the other (unlike T levels or other physiological markers) does not make common sense as an eligibility criterion.
Where is the overlap in actual competition? Where are the females in male competition?
The sum total of all male advantages gained during puberty prevent women from ever "overlapping" in men's sports.
A rule based on testosterone levels means that those with the male advantages you refer to will retain them, as no woman can have natural testosterone to male levels. It thereby doesn't require sex testing or any other "complicated" discussions about sex/gender to determine eligibility in female competition.
Thanks RR for taking the time to write so clearly and thoughtfully.
After reading through this thread, I have to ask whether you know if there's any evidence that Dunning/Kruger is sex-linked. I ask b/c there's one poster here who could be a poster boy for "Incompetent and unaware of it."
In the meantime, keep up the good work. It is appreciated.