Sub 2:20 Program

Not that I am a sub-2:20 guy, but since you havent' gotten any replies, I throw a few suggestions your way. Take them for what they are worth.

I would put an emphasis on MP (Marathon Pace) running with VO2 Max development (I like 3 to 5 minute reps myself). I will still include some sort of turnover work (400's or minutes. If you can, you may want to do doubles on some of your days to possibly aid recovery.

Sample Schedule off the top of my head...

Sun: 22 miles or 2:30 whichever is less

Mon: 6 miles morn/6 miles evening

Tue: 8-10 x 3 min on/2 off (10K pace) or

14-16 x 1 min on/1 min off (5K pace)

Wed: 16 miles

Thur: 4 x 2 miles (MP -5/10 sec/mile)

Fri: 8 miles morn/8 miles evening

Sat: 12 miles (Progression Run if feeling good)

Good luck with you endeavor.

Peace.

I think you might have a bit more luck if you cut that down to 1 marathon per year or 2 in 18 months, and then devote more time in between to pursuing those 5k-10k races. Really give yourself a longer time to periodize for each of those goals.

Include a real base phase, then devote another 3-4+ months for transition, harder work, and then race specific stuff. Use Lydiard, Daniels, Canova, whatever, but really work on improving each aspect of your game.

For your marathon plan, I think you've got too much emphasis on your vo2max intervals. Particularly if this is what you're going to be doing in the 8 weeks right before your marathon.

Maybe you'll balk at this, but you could look at the marathon training outline in this month's issue of Runnners World and then flesh that out for someone running a bit more seriously. It's actually got some good info. If you want to get closer to the source, buy Canova's IAAF booklet. Look at the logs on Hodge's site--there's a lot of good info there.

So Joe doesn't have reply and thus work on his business & take care of his kiddies, here's one of his marathon outlines he posted in a thread a while back:

Sun: Long run every other week, harder long run every other to every 3-4th week.

Mon: AM. 30-60 min PM. run of 50-70

Tues: AM: 30-60 min. PM: Harder workout

Wed: AM: Progressive run PM: 30-50 min optional if advanced

Thur: Recovery run or 2 easy runs

Fri: Same as Tuesday

Sat: Same as Monday if developed, same as Thursday if younger.

Sunday. Alternate efforts every other (advanced) to every 3rd-4th week if a rookie. Can substitue a 15-30k race effort. If half or 15k, substantial warmup and/or cooldown is recommended (ie 3 mile up, 13.1 race, 6 mile down):

Month #1: Easy 1:45-2 or 5 easy, 5 at MP, 5 easy, 5 at MP

Month #2: 2-2:15 or 10 easy, 10 at MP

Month #3: 2:15-30 easy or 5 easy, 15 at MP, 2 mile cooldown. Gaintenby and Somers will do this in the following 5 miles splits when fit. 35, 31, 30, 29. Derego ran races instead, a half marathon 2 months out and a 30k at MP pace 4 weeks out.

Tues or Fri workout: Ideal if there can be a longer warmup and cooldown of 25-30 min on in/outs and 10k paced reps to add volume. Also, a second run for the day of 30, 40, working up to 45-50 minutes by month #3 on these days is good to make the total volume of the day add up to 20-24. We want marathon specific fitness of 20-24 miles 3-5 days per week which 15 miles a day doesn't get. Just gotta get used to being on your feet a good 2-3 hours consistently. We just rotate through the following 3 workouts:

Workout #1: in/out 400's. 400 at 5k/400 at MP. Month #1, probably 3 x 2 miles w/ easy 400-800 jog btw each, month #2 2 x 3 miles worth, month #3 6 miles straight up. Derego did 4 miles worth this fall. Somers did 6 miles worth, Jill did 60 seconds on/off x 16-22.

Workout #2: 10k pace reps. 8-12 x 1k or 5-7 x 1600 at 10k pace with 400 jog. Maybe start with 4-5 miles in in month #1, 5-6 miles worth in Month #2, and 6-7 in month #3. Derego was at 5 miles worth, Jill and Linda about 6-7, Brian 6.

Workout #3: MP runs. Reps at Marathon pace w/ 800 jog. Month #1: 6 x 2 miles or maybe 8 x 2k if fat ass. Month #2: 4 x 5k. Month #3: 3 x 4 miles. If under-developed athlete, consider 2/3's the volume of reps. Also can go 40 min easy, 4 miles at MP, 5 min, 4 miles at tempo.

Final workouts to consider before taper. Replace with MP runs above: 4 miles at MP, 3 at tempo, 2 at 10k, 1 at 5k, 800 at 3k all with 800 jog. Also, can go 20 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge, 10 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge, 8 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge, 6 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge, 4 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge, 2 min at MP/tempo, 60 sec surge. Second option works well run within a low key 10k race.

Weekly mid week progressive runs: 14-16 with each 5k faster than the previous in hills.

Month #1: Working down to the last 5k at slightly slower than MP.

Month #2: 5k at slightly slower than MP, then last 5k at MP

Month #3: 5k at slightly slower than MP, then 5k at MP, then last 5k at tempo

Good if you can go 3-4 weeks at the above program, then take a lighter down (recovery) week and run a race at the end to see where the athlete is at. So 3 weeks at the above levels, 1 week easier, a race to determine fitness, then back on it the next month at a slightly higher level.

Found this, hope it helps.

Renato Canova

You'll never do it unless you run twice a day. Split your 13 milers into two, better still forget about 'miles' and run for 'minutes'....it's all about getting time on your feet. your legs will simply not get the trip if you don't start conditioning them to the concept of duration spent running. So on your '13'mile days break that into two runs. 30 mins am (on a good day this will take you 5miles but don;t freak out if it takes you 4.5 when your shagged). then 45 mins pm (this ahould take you beyond your 7mile target but don't freak out if it doesn't). Also don't do your miles on the track, get on the surface your racing on....tarmac is where it's at...your legs are mush right now and will be again at 21 miles so you better condition them right, get on the roads.

Forget about tempo runs, they're a wast of time. Do 10 x 400 with 60 sec jog recovery on the track once a week for turnover, nothing else. do them between 65-70 depending on how you feel. remember this pace is WAY faster than your 5:20 marathon pace so again don't panic.

Do this for 10 weeks then taper for 2 weeks and you'll be good to go. Marathon training is boring......get used to it. There are no secrets. Lots of minutes on your feet with mile reps on the road, 400's on the track and a race on Saturday to break up the monotony once and a while. DO NOT DO MORE THAN ONE MARATHON A YEAR AND IN BETWEEN TIME RACE NO LONGER THAN 10 miles ever! You will only make youself tired and your gonna be tired enough.

KEEP IT SIMPLE, way too many would be marathon runners overcomplicate it, screw themselves in the head and they're beat before they get anywhere near the start line. Also have FUN, way too many runners are way too serious and try to find answers where there are none.

I was coached by a 2:09 guy and I went from decent club runner to 2:18 (with a 2:20 and 2:19 in between......ran about three 2:25's on my bad days).

Good lick

Why not institute the services of a personal coach?

Apparently Planner doesn't care what anyone has to say...he hasn't responded. Maybe his cat died or something.

Just wondering...

If you have run 6 weeks of 100 mpw and ran 15:08/31:55 why do you think doing the same thing again will get you 14:40/30:30 and sub 2:22? Is this program a different intensity or something?

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. I agree with some and not with others but its all good food for thought. I will seriously consider doing 2 a day workouts for marathon training rather than 13 miles on singles.

As for the 6 weeks at 100 miles. I did this in just base training and not while doing good quality workouts. I did my 5k and 10k PR's while doing 70-80 miles per week but I never strang more than 4 or 5 good consistent weeks together. I was young and in college and not mature enough I guess.

I'm a few years older and wiser now and ready to make the commitment necessary.

As for engaging a private coach. I may consider it but I'd have to find the right person I trust first, not an easy task.

Thanks again for the input and by the way I don't have cat, but my beagle is fine thanks.

I don't have any advice but this is also my goal. Although I will not be out of college yet I still hope to red-shirt my senior year completely and focus fulling on attempting a qualifying time. My current 5k/10k pr's are 14:55/31:20 and half marathon is 1:14:20 (Think I could have run 1:13:00 but I had no one to run with. Was able to run 15:20 road 5k the very next day.) Thanks for everyones input, I will be sure to save this thread. Good Luck to all thinking of or already competeing in Marathons!!! Hope to see you all in 2008

SlowerDanU wrote:

Found this, hope it helps.

Renato Canova

Thanks again

My own approach was primarily just to up the mileage, then up the overall intensity. Just do as much as you can handle without breaking down, breaking up, or becoming unemployed (although unemployment can be pretty good for your running if you can afford it). When you can handle the mileage, increase the pace. Add hills when you can handle high mileage at a strong pace. Add the higher intensity stuff (call it VO2 max training, threshold training, and other fancy names if you want) when high mileage at a strong pace starts feeling a little too easy.

I don't see the point in having 5k/10k training stretches. If your goal is to run a fast marathon within the next couple of years, then focus on marathon training and racing, not 5k and 10k training and racing.

One last thing: If you're really serious about your marathon goal, don't do a lot of racing. In my opinion, you'll make more progress by cutting out all racing and putting all of your time and energy into marathon training.

Been There,

You are so correct about the need to do 2 a days to run sub 2:20. I guess that is why Rich McCandless ran 2:12 running 13 miles a day on a one a day program due to his work schedule. Thanks for the positive feedback about this person never going to be able to do it. As I always say, and yes, it worked for me, it's not the miles ran but what you do with the miles run that counts.

I like your schedule. The only change I would make is to combine your tempo run and your long run. It will give you more days in between your two hard days of the week and will be more specific to the marathon.

In all fairness to the the two-a-day proponents, it is believed that "doubles" do facilitate slightly faster capillary development, so the value of running twice a day would vary depending on the runner. IOW, McCandless may have been at a maximum development and would not have benefitted in the same this other runner did.