Say it with me: Cole Hocker's kick is overrated.

His hair is alarming. If I ever cross paths I'll remove the lot.

Beamish was destined for international competition before NCAA. Same with Kusche from Nebraska and Tanner from UW.

Beamish had a solid 4 years at NAU, majored in engineering. Seems like a decent hard working kid. Now with a 100% focus on sport he is reaping the benefits.

As for Hocker, he is a fierce competitor. Teare proved resilient after a fallout at NCAA XC. I was concerned he would continue flopping.

The one who is overrated is trash talking, Craig.

J. Ingebrigtsen's kick is survival of the ... wrote:

High hopes wrote:

You're wrong about Jakob's kick, it is stellar. He and Kerr were the fastest through the last 400, 300, 200, and 100, and they were doing that to run 3:28 and 3:29. They both have amazing closing speed even off a hard pace. Hocker also closed well, not going to deny that, but he needs to find two seconds AND retain the closing speed. The current 1500m game is damn hard

J. Ingebrigtsen's kick is NOT stellar. J. Ingebrigtsen has a survival of the fittest kick. No way in Olympic or World Champion semi-final or final would J. Ingebrigtsen have the guts to rest up and split 1200m in 2:57 to 3:03 range. It takes confidence to allow the pace to be slow through 1200m. Having to take the lead and push the pace from 400m in 1500m race is a sign of fear.

CORRECT! (well, except for one thing...he races as he does not as a sign of fear, but out of necessity if he wants to win). He is GREAT. He has a decent kick, but it is NOT stellar (not compared to other world class runners).

Hocker didn't have his blistering kick until NCAA's last year. Teare was beating him in the time trials and early meets. Give him time to sharpen up. He will have a his kick back by USA's

J. Ingebrigtsen's kick is survival of the ... wrote:

High hopes wrote:

You're wrong about Jakob's kick, it is stellar. He and Kerr were the fastest through the last 400, 300, 200, and 100, and they were doing that to run 3:28 and 3:29. They both have amazing closing speed even off a hard pace. Hocker also closed well, not going to deny that, but he needs to find two seconds AND retain the closing speed. The current 1500m game is damn hard

J. Ingebrigtsen's kick is NOT stellar. J. Ingebrigtsen has a survival of the fittest kick. No way in Olympic or World Champion semi-final or final would J. Ingebrigtsen have the guts to rest up and split 1200m in 2:57 to 3:03 range. It takes confidence to allow the pace to be slow through 1200m. Having to take the lead and push the pace from 400m in 1500m race is a sign of fear.

Lol, sure, it takes confidence to run slow and then power home for 6th place. Confidence is going hard from the gun and rinsing your rivals, see also David Rudisha, Athing Mu, Faith Kipyegon, etc, etc. And isn't that exactly how your God, Pre, ran? Sitting and praying to the almighty that it's 3:40 race is a sign of lack of faith in your ability

High hopes wrote:

J. Ingebrigtsen's kick is survival of the ... wrote:

J. Ingebrigtsen's kick is NOT stellar. J. Ingebrigtsen has a survival of the fittest kick. No way in Olympic or World Champion semi-final or final would J. Ingebrigtsen have the guts to rest up and split 1200m in 2:57 to 3:03 range. It takes confidence to allow the pace to be slow through 1200m. Having to take the lead and push the pace from 400m in 1500m race is a sign of fear.

Lol, sure, it takes confidence to run slow and then power home for 6th place. Confidence is going hard from the gun and rinsing your rivals, see also David Rudisha, Athing Mu, Faith Kipyegon, etc, etc. And isn't that exactly how your God, Pre, ran? Sitting and praying to the almighty that it's 3:40 race is a sign of lack of faith in your ability

Wow, you are a moron.

Why do we always argue when we have nothing to argue about? All these posts are variations on the same opinion.

-- Hocker is one of the best 1500m runners in the world: likely in the top 10, but behind the top 2. He is currently the favorite to win at US trials, but it wouldn't be shocking to see him lose. He's got a better-than-even chance of making global finals, and is solidly in contention for a medal

-- He has a strong kick, partly because he's so fast, but his kick is likely better than most others of his ability. It doesn't make him a favorite to win over the top 2 since better runners usually win, and in a fast race it's unlikely he could kick them down. A slower race, however, brings a larger group of runners into contention, and Hocker certainly is in that category.

-- Hocker is young, and so could improve, and at his ability any significant improvement would make him one of the very best in the world. He isn't so young that improvement is guaranteed however. His first race this year was not a particular sign that he will improve, but it's hard to draw conclusions either way since it was his first race since the Olympics.

Does anybody actually materially disagree with a significant portion of this? I haven't seen a single post so far that does. If not, what are we even arguing about?

I would say that you summed that up pretty well.

This is very well said. The trolls on this forum—and perhaps even some genuine posters—are incapable of discussing these things with even a modicum of nuance. It’s a shame that this forum is such a garbage heap of losers because interspersed among all the trolling and vitriol there is some really great content.

Yay! Nuance!

You nailed it.

You're probably more down on the first race than I am considering how Hocker has opened a bit slow each season (indoors - 7:46 loss to Teare, 3:50.5 loss to Teare, Outdoors - 3:36.4 loss to Teare/Nuguse). 7:39 and barely losing out to Teare/Beamish with some tactical errors and 1 track workout on the books is pretty good.

This feels like the fitness is already good to start the season. Your analysis of the kick is perfect. It's a tougher era to be a 3:31 guy with a ferocious kick, but if Hocker improves his fitness he can be a factor.

Isn't it also true that Beamish is further into his training cycle, so not surprising he outkicked Teare and Hocker?

Hocker, young? That hairline looks 30 💀

For all those who dismiss Jakob's kick, how slow would a race have to go for Hocker to beat him?

OozmaKappa wrote:

First of all, I told you so. Second of all, I told you so. Cole Hocker is what I like to call the illusion of speed. He walks through weak fields in the G League of running (NCAA) with bad pacing and fast 100m splits in slow races, which makes his kick look more impressive then it actually is.

Case in point, low and behold, Millrose demonstrated just that. Except it wasnt even a fast race and Beamish isnt even that great of a runner.

And if his kick wasnt enough in a +7:40 3000m race, imagine how lackluster it would be in a sub 7:30 race.

Are you a troll?

1. Centro in the final100m is weak competition?

2. Why throw shade at Beamish? Beamish is great and every indication says that he's hitting his stride and will show out on the world stage.

3. 7:40+ race? Hocker literally finished under 7:40. Also, why would a kick in a 7:30 race count? He's not contesting the 3000m in global championships. Your point is completely moot. He's already run 3:31 at age 20, which, along with his kick, shows that he's capable of finishing well in global championships barring sub-3:30 frontrunning from Ingebrigtsen or Cheruiyot, but that's a whole other issue. Manzano and Centro had similar chops and they have global medals, let alone an Olympic gold and silver between them.

high school xc coach wrote:

For all those who dismiss Jakob's kick, how slow would a race have to go for Hocker to beat him?

The 1500m man who raced with the most confidence I have seen, John Walker, 1976 Olympics 1500m final. Looking at the race, Walker obviously was confident he was going to win. He showed E. Coghlan a bit of respect 400m to 1050m, moving up to middle of the back. Walker with 450m to go moved up on Coghlan's shoulder. With 300m to go, R. Wohlhuter tried to pass Walker and Coghlan. Walker said, Game on! 1976 Olympics 1500m final is the only 1500m final with two medalists sprinting sub-38 final 300m, Walker & van Damme. [2016 Olympics was close. Matt C. sprinted 38.00. Mahkloufi sprinted sub-38 last 300m.] J. Ingebrigtsen doesn't have a sub-38 last 300m in him in a 800m to 10000m race.

Your problem is that you're replacing the word "tactical" with "slow." Do you think Olympic gold medal winners care how they got to the finish line, or that they shouldn't be "celebrated" because they didn't meet your standard of "fast?"

Should Centro's gold not be celebrated? What about Cacho's or Walkers? Is Coe's 3:38 too slow?

There are some weird people on this site with even weirder elitism.

OTOH wrote:

Isn't it also true that Beamish is further into his training cycle, so not surprising he outkicked Teare and Hocker?

Yes, no doubt a factor. Ultimately Hocker's splits are pretty good, and it's an opener. We just saw Kerr get beat pretty handily by Hoare and I don't see anyone saying he's definitively taking a step back or whatever.

high school xc coach wrote:

For all those who dismiss Jakob's kick, how slow would a race have to go for Hocker to beat him?

A 1500 or what? In a 1500, I'd say 3:34 and it's game on.