Threshold plus vVO2

I should add that we used 1 minute rest between all reps.

CoachB wrote:

We finally had some really good weather today, so I got a little more aggressive with the workout for my varsity kids and decided to spice up the planned CV interval session.

2.5 wu, 1 mile tempo,800, 1 mile tempo, 800, 1 mile tempo 1.5 mile cd. The 800s were at vVO2 (as determined by a 6 minute test). The workout was on part of our cc course which is flat, but fairly slow.

Top guy was 5:33, 2:31, 5:43, 2:33, 5:40. Said it felt pretty relaxed.

My kids may have been closer to threshold on the miles, but it didn’t look like they were overly stressed.

I thought it was a pretty good session. Just wanted to share.

Thanks for sharing, a good one.

Its basically an over and under Lactate Threshold session.

An idea is to reduce the pace for the 800m to 5k.

Its a conincidence, however, i planned for today on a treadmill (my own creation):

warm up 15 min

5 minutes sub-threshold, 3 minutes CV/10k pace, 5 minutes sub-threshold, 7 minutes easy

3 sets of it

no rest, between sets or reps. i have easy pace included therefore ...

lexel wrote:

Thanks for sharing, a good one.

Its basically an over and under Lactate Threshold session.

An idea is to reduce the pace for the 800m to 5k.

The idea is to get the kids used to hard surges mid race. My top guy has an excellent kick, but in our two league races, he’s been out raced by a rival who has thrown hard surges somewhere between 3k and 4K to break away. My guys are plenty aerobically strong, but I want them to experience that “oh sh1t” feeling a bit in workouts so they’re ready for it in a race.

If anything, I want the 800s to be faster. I told my guys to run them as fast as they could without blowing up. It just worked out that they ran right around vVO2, or just a hair slower. If they can run 1:58 on this workout and in the future, I wouldn’t tell them no

CoachB wrote:

We finally had some really good weather today, so I got a little more aggressive with the workout for my varsity kids and decided to spice up the planned CV interval session.

2.5 wu, 1 mile tempo,800, 1 mile tempo, 800, 1 mile tempo 1.5 mile cd. The 800s were at vVO2 (as determined by a 6 minute test). The workout was on part of our cc course which is flat, but fairly slow.

Top guy was 5:33, 2:31, 5:43, 2:33, 5:40. Said it felt pretty relaxed.

My kids may have been closer to threshold on the miles, but it didn’t look like they were overly stressed.

I thought it was a pretty good session. Just wanted to share.

I have a kid that did a similar workout this week his was 1 mile then 400 2 minute rest and repeat for 3 sets. His paces where 4:58-1:08, 4:59-1:07 and 4:53-1:06

Was henslowing down because of the course or because he was tired?

Are there any studies that indicate prescribing a specific pace is better than just letting the kids run?

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Are there any studies that indicate prescribing a specific pace is better than just letting the kids run?

What does “just letting the kids run” even mean?

forcerunner wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Are there any studies that indicate prescribing a specific pace is better than just letting the kids run?

What does “just letting the kids run” even mean?

Just running by feel and that's what runners did until fairly recently. Have runners turned into droids that never have good days or bad for workouts? There were days for me when a workout that should have been easy wasn't and others when I felt great and ran faster than expected.

If a kid runs 5-10 seconds per mile faster or slower than some goal pace, does it matter?

SDSU Aztec wrote:

forcerunner wrote:

What does “just letting the kids run” even mean?

Just running by feel and that's what runners did until fairly recently. Have runners turned into droids that never have good days or bad for workouts? There were days for me when a workout that should have been easy wasn't and others when I felt great and ran faster than expected.

If a kid runs 5-10 seconds per mile faster or slower than some goal pace, does it matter?

RPE is not a great way to have high school athletes have consistent training. Get with the times!

forcerunner wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Just running by feel and that's what runners did until fairly recently. Have runners turned into droids that never have good days or bad for workouts? There were days for me when a workout that should have been easy wasn't and others when I felt great and ran faster than expected.

If a kid runs 5-10 seconds per mile faster or slower than some goal pace, does it matter?

RPE is not a great way to have high school athletes have consistent training. Get with the times!

Really? What if the day is hot and humid?

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Just running by feel and that's what runners did until fairly recently. Have runners turned into droids that never have good days or bad for workouts? There were days for me when a workout that should have been easy wasn't and others when I felt great and ran faster than expected.

If a kid runs 5-10 seconds per mile faster or slower than some goal pace, does it matter?

With that thinking you can say 'it does not matter what and how you train'.

But i guess that is not correct.

What and how you train matters, also having the correct pace is important. That makes the difference.

And training by feel, please guys, forget that comment for persons which do not have 'the feel'.

Even if someone feels good at one day and runs easy instead of hard, was it therefore correct?

Training by feel does not guarantee any good result either.

bsrggsbsgr wrote:

Was henslowing down because of the course or because he was tired?

He slowed down because 5:33 was too fast for the first mile. That's approaching 5k race pace for him. He (and his teammate who is a little slower) knew they wouldn't finish the workout if they kept going that hard. IMO, the slowing from 2:31 to 2:33 on the second 800 is just artifact. He was looking pretty good, I think he could have gone much faster if he wanted. In the future he probably will.

I was very happy with the ability to jump right back into a pace that was threshold, or even slightly faster only 1 minute after an 800 that was very near 3200 PR pace, at the very end of the workout.

Overall, he said the workout wasn't that hard.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Are there any studies that indicate prescribing a specific pace is better than just letting the kids run?

The pace prescriptions are just guidelines. I usually give the kids a target effort for the workout as well, as in, this workout is supposed to be a 7 out of 10. I've found my athletes like goal time to shoot for and if those times are tied to specific variables (threshold, vVO2, etc) even better.

This was the first time all season that we've tried a hard afternoon workout with the temperatures below 90 degrees. Most of the time this season, I've been adjusting the pace downward to compensate. For instance, two weeks before, we did 5 x 1200 on the same loop, 1 minute rest, and my top boys averaged only 4:23 per rep.

I try to set it up so that we run one early season fitness test in perfect conditions and one in the conditions that we'll train in for most of the year. For most of the season, the paces assigned for workouts are roughly based on those two tests (unless we get massive jumps in fitness, as you'd see in a beginner)

Pretty tough session. Likely these boys blew past the lactic threshold at the end of the first mile and stayed pretty anaerobic the rest of the way with the short recoveries, but the pounding on the legs was saved by the slower paced miles.

forcerunner wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Just running by feel and that's what runners did until fairly recently. Have runners turned into droids that never have good days or bad for workouts? There were days for me when a workout that should have been easy wasn't and others when I felt great and ran faster than expected.

If a kid runs 5-10 seconds per mile faster or slower than some goal pace, does it matter?

RPE is not a great way to have high school athletes have consistent training. Get with the times!

With the username "Aztec" it's obvious they are out of date...

Tortoise wrote:

forcerunner wrote:

RPE is not a great way to have high school athletes have consistent training. Get with the times!

With the username "Aztec" it's obvious they are out of date...

But Forcerunner is wrong and Aztec is right.

You don't make kids run extra hard in hot and humid conditions to hit some idealized goal pace.

intuition wrote:

Tortoise wrote:

With the username "Aztec" it's obvious they are out of date...

But Forcerunner is wrong and Aztec is right.

You don't make kids run extra hard in hot and humid conditions to hit some idealized goal pace.

Or when the kids have tired legs. There was one time when I was in 9:30 shape that I planned on running a 9:45 in a duel meet as a tune-up, but instead ran a miserable 9:59. With one day's rest, there are good and bad days.

I don't buy into the idea that you can prepare for a certain situation in a race. The goal for training should be being capable of running the fastest time possible. If a 4:20 kid is running against one that can run 4:15, it's not in his best interests to cover a hard surge. If he can also run 4:15, he can decide whether to cover it or give the guy some room if he thinks he'll come back to him. This is true for any distance race.