Marc Bloom thinks Frank Shorter might be the marathon GOAT and might have been able to beat Eliud Kipchoge

Go to bed Frank. We know you were great but your argument to be the greatest US marathoner is plausible, but in the world you likely are not in the top of 10 all time.

Monkeyoo wrote:

Go to bed Frank. We know you were great but your argument to be the greatest US marathoner is plausible, but in the world you likely are not in the top of 10 all time.

#3 AT

Behind 1. Kipchoge and 2. Bikila

Just ahead of 4. Carlos Lopes and 5. Sammy Wanjiru

Frank Shorterer wrote:

Marc Bloom makes a good case for Frank Shorter but I think there is one huge gap in Frank’s GOAT resume THE WORLD RECORD.

I had trouble accepting the time conversions and think Kipchoge deserves the clear nod on times. If we look back at Shorter and Kipchoge’s track times (where shoe technology and pacing has not played the same role) Shorter is a 27:45 10k runner and Eliud is a 26:49 runner. Eliud was a world champion in the 5K against two other GOATs. Shorter wasn’t even a match for Pre in the 5K.

Frank was great. Eliud Kipchoge is the GOAT.

Abebe Bikila is ahead of Shorter. Real back to back gold medalist just like Kipchoge.

skin shoes wrote:

Frank Shorterer wrote:

Marc Bloom makes a good case for Frank Shorter but I think there is one huge gap in Frank’s GOAT resume THE WORLD RECORD.

I had trouble accepting the time conversions and think Kipchoge deserves the clear nod on times. If we look back at Shorter and Kipchoge’s track times (where shoe technology and pacing has not played the same role) Shorter is a 27:45 10k runner and Eliud is a 26:49 runner. Eliud was a world champion in the 5K against two other GOATs. Shorter wasn’t even a match for Pre in the 5K.

Frank was great. Eliud Kipchoge is the GOAT.

Abebe Bikila is ahead of Shorter. Real back to back gold medalist just like Kipchoge.

And Cierpinski. He has to be ahead of Frank for obvious reasons. The doping argument does not work for me. There would be others disqualified then probably including Kipchoge.

I don't think it was a good case for Shorter.

Shorter is great. Shorter clearly really won 2 Olympic Gold Medals. Shorter is one of the main reasons for the running boom n the 70s, and I think he's a good commentator too. Nothing really to no like about the guy.

But, back in the 70s, the whole world wasn't competing yet. Compared to today, the 70s is DIII vs DI today.

No, current shoes and training methods would not make Shorter be able to compete with Kipchoge. Sorry, but no.

Monkeyoo wrote:

skin shoes wrote:

Abebe Bikila is ahead of Shorter. Real back to back gold medalist just like Kipchoge.

And Cierpinski. He has to be ahead of Frank for obvious reasons. The doping argument does not work for me. There would be others disqualified then probably including Kipchoge.

You mean you don't believe Cierpinski was doping? Impossible to believe that he wasn't.

That is not what I wrote Flagpole. I wrote that the doping argument does not work for me. To elaborate, I alluded to the apparent fact that others would be disqualified due to doping, likely including, but not limited to Kipchoge.

Frank Shorterer wrote:

Marc Bloom makes a good case for Frank Shorter but I think there is one huge gap in Frank’s GOAT resume THE WORLD RECORD.

I had trouble accepting the time conversions and think Kipchoge deserves the clear nod on times. If we look back at Shorter and Kipchoge’s track times (where shoe technology and pacing has not played the same role) Shorter is a 27:45 10k runner and Eliud is a 26:49 runner. Eliud was a world champion in the 5K against two other GOATs. Shorter wasn’t even a match for Pre in the 5K.

Frank was great. Eliud Kipchoge is the GOAT.

I’m a big Shorter fan and wrote in another thread why Shorter accomplished far more than Rupp and should be considered the USA distance GOAT. There was a lot of push back even trying to argue Shorter > Rupp. Trying to argue that he’s greater than Kipchoge in the marathon is ridiculous. People seriously think that better shoes, training, pacing and professionalism is going to take 10 minutes off the clock? C’mon….

I saw the article on the front page and about fell out of my chair when I read the following:

Bloom wrote:

"In an idealized race between Shorter and Kipchoge at their best, in today’s conditions, and with today’s shoes, I believe we would see a stride-for-stride duel and, who knows, maybe a real time that would threaten 2 hours."

and thought to myself, "That's the dumbest thing I've read in a long time." Then I read the article and thought Marc Bloom made some good points. Marc knows a lot and has done a lot for the sport but let's be serious, Shorter would get destroyed by Kipchoge.

Yes I know David Epstein has a TED talk that points out a ton of the improvements in times of the years has been due to technology. But the rise of East Africans in the marathon now that it's a pro sport is hard to deny.

Can't believe Bloom, who goes way back, mentions two double Olympic Gold medalists but doesn't mention the third -- Abebe Bikila. Two Olympic Gold medals, two World Records. Not even Kipchoge can claim that. Not saying Bikila is the GOAT but he's much more worthy than Shorter. I think even Shorter would agree with that.

If you're going to write something like this, why not do some actual research instead of just dropping stuff like, "let's say drafting is worth 10 seconds/mile." This has been researched. Drafting gets you about 4/seconds per mile at Kipchoge's pace.

And the whole argument that the 72 games had "the best field ever assembled," is silly. You could say the same of almost every Olympic marathon. If you take those guys' track PRs, the were mostly scrubs. Frank was at the vanguard of runners with legit 10k credentials taking the marathon seriously, and there were only a couple of guys with real 10k speed in that race.

Shoes? No question that new supershoes are better. But that's a pretty recent development. The kinds of racing flats that most pros (including Kipchoge) were wearing prior to 2016 weren't actually all that different from the Tiger flats of the 70s.

Bloom is very old and biased, he simply fell out of favor with the sport the last decade +

Frank will tell you himself that he simply doesn't have the natural speed to even hold 2:05 Marathon pace for long in his prime. He was never a great 3000m runner, decent at 5000m, better at 10,000m and wasn't even undefeated over the Marathon with quite a few poor performances.

Kipchoge #1

Bikila #2

Marc Bloom is on the finest drugs known to man. That’s all I’ll say🤦‍♂️

Yes, Marc Bloom has a bias. The 1984 autobiography “Olympic Gold” is credited to Frank Shorter with Marc Bloom.

Aside of one gold and one silver, Shorter’s legacy should always include his leadership in the fight to strip the power of the archaic AAU (but leadership of the sport inside the USA may be just as corrupt).

That time conversion was totally wacky

Cory Hill wrote:

Yes, Marc Bloom has a bias. The 1984 autobiography “Olympic Gold” is credited to Frank Shorter with Marc Bloom.

Aside of one gold and one silver, Shorter’s legacy should always include his leadership in the fight to strip the power of the archaic AAU (but leadership of the sport inside the USA may be just as corrupt).

Though meritorious, his AAU fight has no bearing on his marathon abilities.

You can’t arbitrarily award a second gold to Shorter.

He’s comparing the real Kipchoge to his fantasy version of Shorter.

Bloom’s premise fails based on the actual facts.

skin shoes wrote:

You can’t arbitrarily award a second gold to Shorter.

He’s comparing the real Kipchoge to his fantasy version of Shorter.

Bloom’s premise fails based on the actual facts.

Indeed you are correct. The 1976 Olympic marathon was without Africans due to boycott so it was a weak field and Cierpinski spanked Frank my 55 seconds. This does not happen to the GOAT. Frank was good but he was only 30 seconds ahead of Don Kardong. Kardong was a good but not great runner, with bests of 28:56 and 2:11.

I always liked how Shorter coached himself