When will we have a super shoe for the trails?

I wear-tested the Puma Nitro Elite and had to run a lot of miles in a short period of time so that meant using them for every run I did for a while. I used them on technical, rocky trails and thought they were as good as anything else I run in there. The carbon plate acted as a traditional rock plate does in trail shoes and the Puma Grip outsole was very grippy. Add in light weight and after I sent them back I was missing them out on the trails. They held up well through some terrain they were not designed for. I"m thinking they don't really need to do much to get these kinds of shoes out on the trails (lower stack height, maybe more durable uppers).

This is well-reasoned and likely very similar to what I would have written prior to splurging on a pair of the Endorphins.

Some thoughts now (grain of salt = only 5ish "runs" in them on very rugged terrain similar to Hardrock ):

*They don't feel "fast" in the same sense as road supershoes, and I wouldn't remotely consider them for any race short of an ultra

*My lower legs/ankles/knees feel far less beat up after a long day on rough trails. Likely the carbon plate acting as a rock plate by default, along with the additional stack height

*The midsole is not "mushy" at all - while it's plenty protective and has a bit of rebound, it's actually firmer than my other Saucony's (Xodus)

*Actually lighter than the Xodus

*No idea if I can crank them up to "race" speed, even ultra race speed. Of course mtn ultra race speeds are glacial on average, but you still want to be able to boogie on smoother flat sections and downhills. While they're a bit clunky feeling on flats, they do feel like they could go downhill well due to the extra support and stack (haven't really it tried yet though)

*Bought them not only for the rotation but possibly also for use in an upcoming mtn ultra. Still on the fence between them and the Xodus

*Regardless of all the above, they're definitely a great Hoka alternative for those who don't fit Hokas well. Road supershoe comparable, maybe not so much

This is Jim Kiler wrote:

Joe Jackson wrote:

https://www.craftsports.us/collections/noels-picks/products/men-s-ctm-ultra-carbon?variant=39917764083888

This shoe calls to me, but I don't see any wearing it off-road (other than the models in the Craft site video). Anyone tried this?

Way too heavy and bulky for racing.

trailrunnerbro wrote:

The Boston has a lot of flex in the forefoot as well and the outsole is plenty good for dry trail. My pair also only cost me $68 and I've got like 400 miles on it with very little wear. It also has a torsion system in the midfoot, maybe the Speed Ultra has a beefier one? I guess I am confused why that shoe costs so much and what is so much different/better about it. Seems like the stack is basically the same, if it had more cushion or protection (especially forefoot protection) maybe its worth it. Like you say, if I can find it on sale I might try it out. Just wish Adidas would take their trail shoes the next step further than just putting a trail outsole on a road shoe.

The Boston is a great trail shoe, but since they were asking about supershoes I gave him the Adizero Pro rec.

Don't need it for 15 minute per mile racers. That's slower than how the old ladies at the mall walk.

confused af wrote:

Carbon plates, super foams, all this stuff is limited to the roads, when will we see it on the trails? Nike next% trail? Hoka carbon x trail?

Here you go:

Oh really?

[quote]Over the Hills and Far Away wrote:

1. Soft foams are a liability on the trail, not a benefit

i.e., see Salomon Pulsar and Kilian Jornet

2. Super high stacks are also a liability on the trail

i.e., see HOKA EVO SpeedGoat and Jim Walmsley

3. One trail shoe will not do all ultras well. Some runnable trail ultras may have some road crossover if they’re “trails” and not real trails, but an Alphafly on something like Hardrock would suck.

i.e., see all Modern Trail shoes which work on all trail surfaces

4. Use case would have to change and I’m not sure these road racers will cross over well. Trail races aren’t done at marathon paces, there’s a much wider swing of paces within the run. Power hikes. Light super aerobic jogs. Bombing downhill. Rocks, logs, and technical terrain. Supershoes would suck at doing all of the above.

i.e., see professional runners where someone like Kilian and Walmsley run marathon pace GAP

I mean trail shoes have had carbon fiber rock plates long before "super shoes"

trailrunnerbro wrote:

Wet has not been an issue here as we have been in a drought all summer. But yes, the grip isn't great. And sure, would love for it to be lighter. I'd really like it if Nike would make a racer that has a normal drop. Really irritating to me how much trail runners are obsessed with 4mm drop shoes, my calves do not appreciate the lower drop at all and yes I've tried to 'transition'.

I'm with you on the drop - that's another reason why I love the peg as a trail running shoe. Also been dry all summer here, but another couple of months and the rain will start and will not stop for 6 months, PNW needs shoes with some grip. In the summer I have actually enjoyed running on (even technical) trails wearing Nike Epic React 2, oddly has good grip for a shoe with pretty much zero tread.... and again, that react foam to me is ideal - lets you feel rocks without the the rocks hurting.

These? don't know what stage of the prototyping pipeline they are at though.

Said this before in the recent thread about goretex trail shoes - Nike stuffed up by going away from the peg trail 36. They needed to refine that upper (i.e. strip some away), ditch the zoom pod on the forefoot which was totally dumb for trail as it pops, and go to full React sole, with a grippier outsole (that still ran roads OK). Surely Nike of all companies is capable of making a trail racing shoe that is actually good

They have an "acg mountainfly" shoe - not sure if its meant to be fast.

The North Face Flight Vectiv has been in the market for several months now with super foam/carbon plate. Next year we'll see trail executions from Hoka and Salomon that will utilize separate blades in the forefoot that will allow for propulsion in one direction but flexibility side to side when the ground is uneven. One comment about the Flight Vectiv is that the full plate can tilt you to the side more noticeably since it is rigid in multiple planes. I think Saucony missed by at least not putting a pebax plate in the Endorphin Trail.

Nike hinted to a Vaporfly-esque trail shoe over 2 years ago but we have seen nothing yet. Performance/racing Trail simply is not a priority for Nike. They just trot out basic profiles to check the box that they have a trail shoe, but no serious racer EVER uses Nike.

confused af wrote:

Carbon plates, super foams, all this stuff is limited to the roads, when will we see it on the trails? Nike next% trail? Hoka carbon x trail?

The North Face rolled some out months ago.

Second the comment about noticeable tilt from the plate, but in a different shoe.

I actually wear my Hoka Carbon X2 on a lot of trail runs, simply because trails aren't always too technical. I did bungle impressively about a month ago when I wore them on a trail whose technicality I underestimated. Suffered really significant tilting from side to side and my achilles/ankles still are pissed at me. Blame it on the plate (I do), the foam (less blame here), whatever, it was quite a learning experience.

Sebcoe7 wrote:

... no serious racer EVER uses Nike.

Wait, what?

I haven't followed pro trail running for years. Did they drop their pro team, because not too long ago there were lots of very fast runners in Nike trail shoes.

I don't like the direction the Kiger is moving with each iteration, but it's still one of the best--if not THE best--trail shoe I've run in.

I think it was more that those runners got scooped up by other sponsors, Nike probably wasn't offering as much. But yeah, tons of trail races have been won by folks running in Nike trail shoes so IDK what that person is on. For awhile there the Wildhorse was one of the most winningest trail shoes.

Pretty sure the 2019 CCC winner wore Peg Trail 36

Nike trail shoes all have the same problem which is they are horrible in wet conditions. Worst grip i have ever used. Otherwise i enjoyed the wildhorse 4s i had despite them being a bit on the heavy side.

As for "super" trail shoes. I think there is a lot of variation between distances and technicality of races. Right now it seems like the salomon pulsar is the super shoe for marathon and lower distances. Speedgoat EVO is probably still the best ultra distance shoe. Improving efficiency is still important in trail shoes but most of that efficiency is gone after the 50k mark for 95% of all runners so light weight and protection is more important at that point i would say which is why the speedgoat evo is king at the longer distances.