Some of you who get prematurely excited about Hocker should watch THIS

Peppermint Patty of York wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

Nope! Ya lost! I'm not even the only one in this thread who has said so, and I don't see ANYONE agreeing with you.

Wheating NEVER did ANYTHING as great as run an indoor mile in 3:50 at age 19. The promise from that moment on was greater than any promise Wheating ever had at any age.

Ya lost!

You definitely lost. Just go away, no one likes you.

Hocker is just Wheating with super spikes on.

Flagpole wrote:

INCORRECT!

Hocker is 20 years old and hardly ran any mileage in high school. He is the youngest 1500 meter runner to be NCAA champ in 110 years, and he also just won the Olympic Trials. He ran an indoor mile in 3:50 at age 19. Wheating never EVER ran a mile that fast let alone an indoor mile at age 19.

Sorry dude, Wheating was great, but as we sit here today, Hocker has MORE promise.

So was an 18 year old German Fernandez older than a 20 year old Hocker or was 2009 110 years ago? Pretty sure Ryun would have been younger if allowed to run given he won the outdoor mile as a high schooler. Liquori was also 19 when he won the NCAA/aau mule.

None of this takes away from how good Hocker is. But who knows if he has more promise or if he is maxing his out . We all thought wheating had more in him. He didn't. Same thing about a ton of other guys. I would have thought Robby Andrews would have been a 143/332 guy.

Wheating also ran pretty minimal miles in high school and if I remember correctly only ran one year or track.

52 last lap and a 3:35 are exactly what the Olympic and WC finals since 1983 have averaged out too. Obviously that won't be accurate in predicting any given race, but Hocker does have the wheels to medal, if not win the whole darn thing.

The video is from 2010....why is it the same quality as a video from the 80s?

joecrunner wrote:

52 last lap and a 3:35 are exactly what the Olympic and WC finals since 1983 have averaged out too. Obviously that won't be accurate in predicting any given race, but Hocker does have the wheels to medal, if not win the whole darn thing.

Maybe but remember that the shoe technology and other factors may mean that a 52 close in a 3:35 is no longer what it once was.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Wrong. A top 1500m runner requires speed and unless they are capable of a decent 800 they won't have it - even if they don't compete seriously over the shorter distance. An example is the way El G closed in 1.46x in the 1500 in Athens 2004. That is speed as well as endurance. And he was also more the 1500/5k type. But 5000 endurance isn't necessary to a 1500 runner. In any case, if Hocker isn't an 800/1500 type, what has he done over the 5k?

1. Many think 2004 was the height of epo. That el g close was on a whole other level of good.

2. At 5000, he destroyed teare at pac 12s.

I’d rather be more 1500/5000 than 800/q500 if I am trying to be an elite miler.

Look at kiprop. World junior xc endurance talent. You really need it both though. Speed and endurance.

rojo wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Wrong. A top 1500m runner requires speed and unless they are capable of a decent 800 they won't have it - even if they don't compete seriously over the shorter distance. An example is the way El G closed in 1.46x in the 1500 in Athens 2004. That is speed as well as endurance. And he was also more the 1500/5k type. But 5000 endurance isn't necessary to a 1500 runner. In any case, if Hocker isn't an 800/1500 type, what has he done over the 5k?

1. Many think 2004 was the height of epo. That el g close was on a whole other level of good.

2. At 5000, he destroyed teare at pac 12s.

I’d rather be more 1500/5000 than 800/q500 if I am trying to be an elite miler.

Look at kiprop. World junior xc endurance talent. You really need it both though. Speed and endurance.

Yes look at kiprop. He was an 800/1500m guy. He ran 1:43 and never sniffed 13:00. Elite speed. Good endurance.

What about the rest of the Olympic champs?

Centro is pretty balanced (144/1300)

Makhloufi is a 142/328 guy

El G never ran an 800

Ngeny has that fast 1000 but didn't run much outside.

Moerceli was another 144/1305 guy

Cacho was a 145/1345 guy

Seb coe was an 800m dude running the 1500.

Most then we're not super competitive outside of the 1500 but a lot more of them are 800/1500m guys than 1500/5000m

Now some of that is training and not racing the 5k. A speed guy like Webb didn't run a lot of 5ks especially when in prime shape.

There are some "slow" 800m guys with 146 PRs who are running 3:30. A lot more guys are fast down at 144.

rojo wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Wrong. A top 1500m runner requires speed and unless they are capable of a decent 800 they won't have it - even if they don't compete seriously over the shorter distance. An example is the way El G closed in 1.46x in the 1500 in Athens 2004. That is speed as well as endurance. And he was also more the 1500/5k type. But 5000 endurance isn't necessary to a 1500 runner. In any case, if Hocker isn't an 800/1500 type, what has he done over the 5k?

1. Many think 2004 was the height of epo. That el g close was on a whole other level of good.

2. At 5000, he destroyed teare at pac 12s.

I’d rather be more 1500/5000 than 800/q500 if I am trying to be an elite miler.

Look at kiprop. World junior xc endurance talent. You really need it both though. Speed and endurance.

I get your point Rojo BUT as you know there are several ways to skin a cat. Take Sebastian Coe, for example. Seb won two 1500m Olympic gold medals and two 800m Olympic silver medals. As you know, Seb ran 1:41 and it is unclear what his best 5000m fitness was, but many think it was not faster than 13:30ish. When you look at Wheating, 3:30 says it all. Maybe he could run 1:43 that day and maybe 13:40ish. I am not sure but to me if you can run 3:30, I am not too worried about your 5000m time.

HashTag wrote:

The above is mostly nonsense. Wheating took the scalps of multiple future Olympians and a future gold medalist. 2010 Wheating beats 2021 Hocker in 9 out of 10 races..

Who did he beat that was already good? AJ Acosta? Jack Bolas? He beat Centro before he was that good, I guess that’s cool. He didn’t win US titles. The collegiate crop wasn’t too impressive - were guys challenging NCAA records like this year? He ran 3:30.9 in Monaco but running fast times in Europe is overrated when it comes to medaling prospects. Wheating struggled tactically and his massive stride and huge size were major problems. He didn’t have a kick like Hocker to overcome anything like that.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

HashTag wrote:

The above is mostly nonsense. Wheating took the scalps of multiple future Olympians and a future gold medalist. 2010 Wheating beats 2021 Hocker in 9 out of 10 races..

Who did he beat that was already good? AJ Acosta? Jack Bolas? He beat Centro before he was that good, I guess that’s cool. He didn’t win US titles. The collegiate crop wasn’t too impressive - were guys challenging NCAA records like this year? He ran 3:30.9 in Monaco but running fast times in Europe is overrated when it comes to medaling prospects. Wheating struggled tactically and his massive stride and huge size were major problems. He didn’t have a kick like Hocker to overcome anything like that.

Hocker is wonderful at kicking off a pedestrian pace for world class runners. Let us see what Hocker can manufacture when he is running 3:32 pace. I know he is young and time will tell. The Centro that Wheating beat was the bronze medalist at 1500m at the World Championships the next year. The Robby Andrews that Wheating beat was NCAA 800m champ in 1:44 the next year.

Hocker is objectively better at every point in his career so far in comparison to Wheating, period.

BUT....there is not any comparison in distance running of the sight of a 6'5" 180 pound giant running down the track for a 3:30!!!

Wheating was a True Beast of a dude!

Yes the problem is those guys weren’t good just yet. Remember George Manangoi beating young Jakob before he had arrived as a racer. You should grade the performance on itself and the quality of the competition at the time. Hockers recent championship performance was never matched by Wheating in his entire career.

Unless Tim C. is in the race we haven’t seen a 3:32 championship race since the days of El Gs teammates sacrificing themselves. So it’s not certain Hocker will need to thrive in a race like that.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Yes the problem is those guys weren’t good just yet. Remember George Manangoi beating young Jakob before he had arrived as a racer. You should grade the performance on itself and the quality of the competition at the time. Hockers recent championship performance was never matched by Wheating in his entire career.

Unless Tim C. is in the race we haven’t seen a 3:32 championship race since the days of El Gs teammates sacrificing themselves. So it’s not certain Hocker will need to thrive in a race like that.

But of course if we go by your logic and assert that Centro was not yet a WC bronze medalist until the next year we must also assert that Centro is 5 years removed from being a gold medalist and it is not clear exactly the caliber of field that Hocker defeated. After all clearly Engles was off his game and so Hocker defeated a past his prime Centro and a good college runner in Nuguse. It was NOT as impressive as many think.

This discussion was ONLY about promise/potential, so within the parameters of this discussion, it IS about "whether one had more potential than the other".[/quote]

That is how you and some others have chosen to define the discussion. The thread title holds up Wheating as a warning about getting "prematurely excited" about Hocking. What is the point of arguing who has, or had, the greater absolute potential - a question incapable of definitive answer when that potential was never fulfilled in one case and has yet to be so in the other? Surely the relevant point is that there were great things that could have been predicted for Wheating at an early stage of his career that were never achieved, he showed he was a similarly talented athlete to Hocking and so the same could equally apply to Hocking's career?

Wheating remains a footnote to American track history; Hocking could be the same. Or not. We don't know yet and we can't say.

Perhaps I might add that you can say that maybe one of them has or had the greater potential but it is a kind of "so what" question to me. Wheating never did anything.

A more interesting comparison might be Ryun or Webb, who showed enormous potential at a young age but arguably never realised what many thought they were capable of. I, for one, never thought that Ryun would peak at 20 to not get any better over the next 5 years and to not get the Olympic gold that seemed to be his birthright in 66/67. And I would have expected Webb to have been an Olympic and world championship medalist at least.

I give a lot of respect to Wheating. You look at his times and more... very few people win Olympic medals. I wish more people like Andrew did. He had injuries that got in the way. Most of us who've run know what that's like. He's got my respect and thanks.

Fasterer wrote:

Hocker is objectively better at every point in his career so far in comparison to Wheating, period.

Yep.

Fasterer wrote:

Hocker is objectively better at every point in his career so far in comparison to Wheating, period.

!

thanks to super spikes