Returning from injuries better than before

eliptical works great too.

time for an anecdote:

i know an elite marathoner (2:16 last year, hoping to go sub-2:13 soon) who was out for two months and trained solely on the eliptical.

he did his regular schedule, plus more. he used the same reasoning as the OP, since he was on the machine and there was little stress on the body, he could do much more without worrying about injuries.

only one week after starting to run again, he managed his 3rd fastest 5k ever, and best ever to start a season (14:01, other times are 13:56 and 13:47, i believe).

i would venture to say that the eliptical is slightly more strenuous, as you are supporting your entire weight, whereas on the hike you're just sitting on your butt.

still, i see no reason why a similar programme to the one the OP posted could not be employed on the eliptical.

This is a great thread and I WILL NOT let it die, dammit!

backstretch, where art thou, backstretch?!?

Bump

Since my original post, I actually tried combining biking training with our usual running training.

We used the biking as the double in the afternoon after a morning training session (running). We only biked three times a week (two of these were intervals sessions, the other was the equivalent of a tempo, so no easy days on the bike)and always on the same day as a tempo or something hard.

We tried the theory that we could do more intensity without any more pounding. Some good results, but we are not doing this anymore.

Ironically, our injury rate went up. I suspect it was simply too much intensity for most of my athletes. So now we use the bike training only for those that are injured.

Hey, this thread!

You know what, last year I tried supplementing my regular routine with biking as well, and guess what...

I ended up overtraining and I had to take it easy for a month in order to recover.

Had I tried to do what I did on the pavement rather than on the bike I certainly would have been injured before I was overtrained. With the bike I just shot right past that threshold and straight into the dead-legs fatigue you get from overtraining. Yep, it sucked.

Moral of the story: too much of a good thing is detrimental, no matter how good the idea might look on paper!

Question? I recently had a stress fracture I cross trained hard the first 6 weeks doing plenty of biking and water running then i tried to come back running but the stress fracture was not healed so I took 2 weeks off of doing nothing. Now the next 4 weeks can I gain a good amount of fitness biking and water running before I start running again?

Ok, I'm gonna throw some pointers.

First, there are two different types of injury, one is acute(spraining an ankle), the other is overuse. With an acute injury, I can see an athlete training just AS hard or harder on the elliptical or bike as they were when running(relatively speaking). It really is not a good idea to train too much harder though than you normally do, if AT ALL. The reason for this is because it all comes down to muscle. If you overtrain the muscles, and do not let them recover properly in order for your body to adapt, they become overtrained. Overtrained muscles eventually lead to injury. Although you may not develop a certain injury cross training(since non impact forces are less stress on the body), your body will still be out of balance. As a result injury will likely reoccur when returning to running OR you will have to prolong your return to running in order to stay truly healthy. Now if you have an overuse injury the process is furthur complicated because your body has already made a mistake in the first place and has to compensate. Again, an overuse injury happens when the body has broken down its tissue in order to compensate for the lack of rest the muscles have gotten. Once you cant run and have to cross train, if you do not let your body rest as well, the healing process is furthur delayed. This does not mean to not train at all while injured, quite the contrary is imperative to maintain fitness. Cross training is great for injuries because it speeds the healing process by increased blood flow. The trick is to cross train correctly while injured, not overdo it, and remember that you were injured for a reason in the first place. Once you understand how you were injured, you will LEARN how to prevent injury in the future by truly listening to your body. Then with progression the PRs will come, and they won't have to come cross training like mad, they will come naturally while running healthy. It may take more time to develop for some athletes, as some require more time to get to a certain level than others, but you will get there if you stick with it nevertheless. Injury sets you back, but injury also is a lesson that runners should take to TRAIN PROPERLY. Patience is the otherside of this, but I'll stop now, I'm sure I've rambled enough.

I tripped and fell on rough pavement a couple of weeks ago, skinned my right knee but got up and kept running.

Since then my left knee has been bothering me.

At first there was a little pain sometimes when first starting to run, that would quickly go away.

Also a tightness behind and below the knee, which I realize now has been swelling.

The swelling has spread and now my knee is swollen above, below and in front. However there is no pain. I was hestitant about running a hill session this morning but felt fine so went again and the session went quite well. Afterwards the knee has been fine but very swollen.

I've been running every day, but am thinking of taking tomorrow off and cycling on the bike stand instead, or for a couple of days until the swelling goes down. In the meantime I've been icing it a few times every day.

My question is, will cycling on the bike stand help the swelling to go down faster than it would to keep running? I'm planning to just cycle steady, icing before and after.

How does this sound, and any suggestions? Thanks.

There must be some bruising above the knee, as it's dark and swollen there too.

My knee feels a bit better today, so I might run again and postphone the bike, or might do a little on the bike to warm up.

Regarding pool running:

You will not be able to achieve as high a heart rate running in the water as running on land. A study from the famed Karolinska Institute in Stockholm found that heart rate is 8-11 beats per minute lower for the same oxygen uptake when running in the water compared to normal running. This study also found maximal heart rate on average to be 16 beats per minute lower during all-out water running compared to land running. Lower heart rates during water running are primarily due to the pressure of water on the body which makes more blood return to the heart so more blood is pumped with each heart beat.

A useful rule of thumb is that heart rates during water running are about 10% lower than during land running. If you get your heart rate up to 140 beats per minute in the water, that is roughly equal to 154 beats per minute during normal running. The temperature of the water affects your heart rate during deep water running. Your heart rate will be lower in cool water and higher in warm water. In addition, two studies have found that women have slightly lower heart rates and oxygen consumption than men during deep water running. This is thought to be due to women�s generally higher bodyfat content and resultant greater buoyancy than men.

The Karolinska study found that perceived exertion is higher during water running for a given heart rate or level of oxygen consumption. So, in order to get a beneficial workout in the water, you will feel that you are working harder than during land running. For this reason, the 9-week schedule emphasizes interval workouts in the water. If you just do steady water running sessions your effort won�t be high enough to maintain your fitness. A study on water running by former 800 meter runner Tim Quinn, Ph.D., and colleagues at the University of New Hampshire concluded that for runners to maintain fitness during water running it is necessary to include intervals, tempo, and/or fartlek training.

http://pfitzinger.com/labreports/water.shtml

My knee was fine running this morning, except a little tight the last 5 minutes and walking around afterwards.

I decided then to keep on the bike tomorrow.

Since then it's felt better than yesterday, though still swollen and tight. I'm icing it a few times a day. Will see how it is in the morning, and at least get on the bike a few minutes before running. I'm still looking for experienced suggestions on riding the bike stand vs running as to which is the better for healing.

I am shocked that nobody mentioned Joan Benoit in pool running context . This should take all the doubts out of running in water .

Being a strong supporter of cross training I was attracted to an idea of working out in water during Bruce Lee era .

So far none of you mentioned great improvements in arms strength ,while running in water .

Few things I did

- aguajogger

- aguajogger with rubber band

- maintaining buoyancy w/o aqua jogger ( significantly harder/more intense )

Cycling greatly stabilized my knees and now I own three different bikes ( road , cross , mountain ) .

Since last year I've been experimenting with PowerCranks and with certain caution and patience they indeed improve running ,far better than stationery bicycle with standard cranks .

Here is the most recent article about PC ( no ,I am not Frank Day !):

http://www.trifuel.com/training/gear/powercranks-review

gear junkie wrote:

Cycling greatly stabilized my knees

Can you explain how it did that?

Thanks

swollen knee wrote:

gear junkie wrote:

Cycling greatly stabilized my knees

Can you explain how it did that?

Thanks

My doctor would do it much better than me .

I was at the very beginning of my cycling at decided to do everything by the book .

- went to the doc and had x rays and manual evaluation

- had PT recommended

- went to see PT at least once a week but was lazy with homework

- started to do regular road rides on my mtb

- dropped whatever PT asked me to do

- went to se the doc after a few month

- Doc had said "if everybody I treat had such a great progress .."

- resumed running , w/o pain in my knees

How can you say once injured you can train better?!

I tore ligaments in my ankle in 1990, reinjured it again in 1993 (from simply getting up and twisting it in a deep hole) and again in 2002. The pain returned each time and running and dancing have been out of the questions since age 30.

Ligaments are the worst electric pain you will ever feel.. you know the pain the makes the huge football p[layers wince on the field? it is worse than a broken bone, they told me.

I was on crutches for long periods of time , to the point where my foot would not reach the ground! the muscles had constricted and my leg was not even with the other due to the misuse.. I used to walk a mile in 7 minutes.. suggestions?

email me at blogtalkradio.com/punkprincess please.

gear junkie wrote:

resumed running , w/o pain in my knees

Did you have pain in your knees at the start?

What rpm's did you use?

backstretch wrote:

Make sure to keep your RPMs in the 110-120 range.

Why so high?

swollen knee wrote:

[quote]gear junkie wrote:

resumed running , w/o pain in my knees

Did you have pain in your knees at the start?

What rpm's did you use?

[quote]

Yes , prior to cycling I had significant knee pain and tore a meniscus in my right knee .

I never had the meniscus fixed but the strength that came out of cycling workouts increased muscles tonus and kept everything aligned ( I only stopped playing soccer , since kicking the ball with the side of my foot blocks the knee ) .

RPM's ? What the heck do we need RPM's for ?

As a matter of fact I work on my article for runners . The title is "A Bike for a runner" and everything that runners need in terms of proper positioning on the bike ( basic sin of newbs ) adjusting gears , picking right locations etc. will be there

Yes i know this is a very old thread. sorry for bumping.

if Backstretch is still there how would he adapt this schedule for the 800/1500 or 1500/3000m runner? or for a 17 year old?

interesting thread