If you are vaccinated, why do you care that I am not?

Jefe in the CO wrote:

2600 bro wrote:

The US is making a choice because we have to an enormous vaccine supply to push for everyone to become vaccinated regardless of prior COVID infection. Mainly because evidence points to be might significantly more protective to be vaccinated than rely on prior infection. Furthermore the logistics of quantifying to strength/durability of an individuals immune response would be logistically difficult.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/health/coronavirus-immunity-vaccines.amp.html

You've missed out on the last 3 weeks of discussion here.

Yes you can get strong, durable immunity from infection - obviously.

1) Such immunity can be hard to measure and predict. Low level infections may not provide great immunity. What is best for determining someones immunity from prior infection?

2) Immunity from vaccines appears to be significantly stronger. Maybe a "1 dose after infection" plan makes the most sense - either way, the vaccine is stronger? (

).

3) The vaccines are abundant in the US - easier to just recommend everyone get one.

4) The cost of relying on immunity through in infection is enormous... 600k dead, many more with longer term effects, $$$ healthcare costs, mitigation measures, etc. Meanwhile, 100s of millions vaccinated and no issues - so far ;)

I forgot to add the variant risk as well...

Vaccines do a much better job a preventing variant evolution. (Less infections, less viral load, less replication, less evolution).

Das Unkle wrote:

Former runner turned bodybuilder wrote:

[quote]DanM wrote:

I am convinced that Harambe and 2600 are both on the payroll of a well funded pro-vaccine group

I think they are the grand-children of the people who totally panicked when Orson Welles did his famous radio show "War of the Worlds" on Halloween in 1938.

Or the children of those who really thought the people on Gilligan's Island were actually stranded there

I never heard of this until now. A Coast Guard commander called the producer. Incredible.

Yawn^7 wrote:

Harambe wrote:

So we have no data that you deem acceptable yet you are quite confident that the vaccine poses higher risk to you than COVID.

This is an iconic fearmonger move:

1) We don't have enough data on long term effects from COVID, therefore we cannot conclude it's dangerous!

2) We don't have enough data on long term effects from the vaccine, therefore we cannot conclude it's safe!

If you set up your standards of evidence such that nothing will move your priors, then it's pretty easy to get the results you want.

Again, you put words in my mouth. I never said the vaccine is a higher risk. If you cannot read properly don’t bother responding.

Note that Yawn ADMITs the vaccine is lower risk than COVID.

They have all but said: "It's because I'm big mad about Biden/Fauci that I'm not taking it"

They try to wrap it up in layers of logic but if you keep asking them questions they eventually admit the core truth: they just don't want to do what Mr. Democrat says.

Former runner turned bodybuilder wrote:

DanM wrote:

I am convinced that Harambe and 2600 are both on the payroll of a well funded pro-vaccine group

That's what I'm wondering. These two post with such antagonistic & imperious attitudes, and such consistently toward pushing the vaccine on the anti-vaxx as well as those on the fence. It's like a never ending "one-two punch" from these guys. Would this tie into the 10 Billion that Biden allocated toward a "campaign to fight vaccine hesitancy?" (10 Bil is a helluva lot of $$$ just to go after the vaccine hesitant). Or would Moderna & Pfizer have an internal program where they pay & support pro-vaccine groups?

The irony of this is that Harambe & 2600 are probably good Joes who share a passion of running, fitness, healthy eating, etc., with the rest of us here but are simply being compensated to do a job.

All I do is ask for numbers to support your fearmongering. Time and time again we show that COVID carries more risk than the vaccine and we are met with more concern trolling, lying, or subject changing. The stuff we have to deal with.... remember when DanM said that the world population increased in 2020, therefore COVID was no big deal? Good lord...

We are at 600k dead Americans and climbing and you all are spending post after post trying to prolong the pandemic.

I want to move on, but some people seem to enjoy COVID too much. Unsettling.

Harambe wrote:

All I do is ask for numbers to support your fearmongering. Time and time again we show that COVID carries more risk than the vaccine and we are met with more concern trolling, lying, or subject changing.

It's undeniable that COVID is more dangerous than the vaccine, especially for the over-30 population. That said, it's hard to provide numbers when the data isn't available. Here are two cases in point.

1) On June 23, 2021, the NIH website released this news release: "NIH begins study of COVID-19 vaccination during pregnancy and postpartum". What!? We have vaccinated 160+ million people and NOW the NIH is going to study its effects! Shouldn't this study have started months ago?

2) The VAERS system is woefully inaccurate because it doesn't report all deaths. Deaths after vaccination are about ten times higher than reported. Instead of reporting all deaths after vaccination, doctors are either ignoring the mandate to report these deaths or they are subjectively deciding that the death is "not related" to the vaccine. Here is proof.

The US age 80+ population is >12 million.

About 75% have been vaccinated... or >9 million

Annual mortality in this cohort is >5%. That is, ~432,000 will die over the next year.

I have definitive proof that VAERS is underreporting deaths after vaccination by tens of thousands.

1) Approx. 9 million age 80+ seniors have been vaccinated to date.

2) This averages to about 432,000 vaccinations/week.

3) Actuarial tables show ~5% annual mortality in the age 80+ cohort

4) That's about 0.43%/month

5) In the first week of vaccinations, those 432,000 age 80+ seniors should see about 1,800 deaths from all causes over the next month, 1,800 deaths over the 2nd month, and so.

6) in the 2nd week of vaccinations, the next group of 432k seniors should see about 1,800 deaths over the next month.

7) In the 3rd week... and so on.

The numbers vary a lot depending on how you do the math, but it's roughly 40,000 all-cause deaths. VAERS is only reporting about 5,000, yet the official VAERS website says doctors are required to report all deaths.

Keep in mind this is only deaths in the over 80 age groups. The 70-79 cohort is 2.5 times larger and has annual mortality of about 2%. It's another 20k-40k deaths.

A far better system would be to track all-cause deaths in 30, 60, and 90 days after vaccination and see if there is a spike in death rates. It would remove the subjectivity from the system and let researchers look at raw numbers.

This is a bit off topic, but the official CDC COVID data tracker page that charts daily cases and deaths hasn't worked in two weeks. It doesn't exactly build my confidence in their data. I can't get it to work on a PC or a Mac. Here's a link. See if it works for you.

I agree that reporting is not following the strict letter of the rule, but I am not a medical doctor or a coroner, so I can't speak to the exact procedures that they would report deaths in VAERS. My guess is that doctors don't report deaths if they don't judge them related to the vaccine using the same metrics they have in the past.

Thankfully we don't need to know about every vaccine dose or death to understand the safety of things, running statistics on representative subsets can tell us what we need to know.

The trials suggests things were very, very safe. If massive amounts of people were dying of the vaccine, why wasn't this seen in the trials?

You can track all cause deaths and because 50% of adults or so have been vaccinated in the past few months, you'd expect to see this reflected in death rates if the vaccine was deadly -- you don't.

Lastly, it still seems insane to me that people thing the government is NOT closely monitoring vaccine safety. We paused the J&J vaccine for, what, 6 events? And are looking at a handful of myocarditis cases. Clearly there is great attention to detail.

P.S. I can get the CDC site to load if I wait a bit. It's a slow script.