Lead Foil Hat wrote:
Alien Observer wrote:
A bioweapon that kills old people with underlying health issues?
What would be the point of that?
Total economic disruption that can be capitalized on.
Winning a trade war being lost by inflicting economic chaos on the "enemy."
Alien Observer needs to wash trump's orange juice off of his face to increase his IQ to 80.
Das Unkle wrote:
What if the lab was being funded by the CDC?
Try this.
In 2014, maybe earlier, the U.S. Army has a contract with researchers at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, to research bat Sars viruses.
Part of that military contract is made public (smoke) and part of it is classified as secret.
The University hires the Wuhan lab to collect and store the bat Sars samples, and send them some to play around with. Starting in 2014 or even earlier.
Deadly strains are engineered at the University. The claim is the the engineered versions are meant to be versions that could occur naturally on their own, and antidotes need to be funded to protect people from them IF THEY somehow occur on their own.
Trump is very angry that he is losing his easy to win trade war, and he looks like a fool for starting his war.
A lethal version of the virus magically occurs in late 2019 somewhere in the area of the Wuhan Lab under contract with the U.S. Army via UNC-Chapel Hill.
The scenario is Twelve Monkeys, except with the U.S. Army being the employer and trainer of the Brad Pitt character.
Lead Foil Hat wrote:
Alien Observer wrote:
A bioweapon that kills old people with underlying health issues?
What would be the point of that?
Find a better conspiracy theory.
Total economic disruption that can be capitalized on.
Yes.
Ummm, no wrote:
Lead Foil Hat wrote:
Total economic disruption that can be capitalized on.
Winning a trade war being lost by inflicting economic chaos on the "enemy."
Alien Observer needs to wash trump's orange juice off of his face to increase his IQ to 80.
It's got nothing to do with Trump. Or Biden. Or any political 'leader'. Stop listening to politicians. Listen to the real policy makers, movers and shakers.
3lonMu$k wrote:
3 scenarios for discussion:
A) The leak was unintentional and CCP govt officials actually had no idea & got blindsided
B) The leak was unintentional but is revealed to have been covered up by CCP govt officials to protect China’s image
C) The leak was intentional, planned and covered up by CCP govt officials
What should be done in each? Should countries retaliate, and it what way? Trade embargoes, military action, forceful removal of Xi, removal from UN/alliances, just writing off any outstanding debts to China as completed, etc? How is accountability measured in this type of scenario, and would it be worthwhile to pursue?
Discus
Not to be a d*****, but isn't it pretty obvious? Namely: ASK DONALD what he would have done? That draft-dodger was SO good at standing up to autocrats. Just ask his followers.
Oh, wait, maybe I'm getting confused. Oh, that's right, he GREATLY envied autocrats, and mostly kissed their a****.
Oh, and don't forget that Trump said many times that his Chinese buddy counterpart was handling COVID just great.
And the Trump flags still wave......and donations flow.
+1, and USA corporate leaders who move(d) manufacturing operations to china should be tried for treason.
3lonMu$k wrote:
3 scenarios for discussion:
A) The leak was unintentional and CCP govt officials actually had no idea & got blindsided
B) The leak was unintentional but is revealed to have been covered up by CCP govt officials to protect China’s image
C) The leak was intentional, planned and covered up by CCP govt officials
What should be done in each? Should countries retaliate, and it what way? Trade embargoes, military action, forceful removal of Xi, removal from UN/alliances, just writing off any outstanding debts to China as completed, etc? How is accountability measured in this type of scenario, and would it be worthwhile to pursue?
Discus
I think B is by far the most likely scenario. How China managed to halt this virus but spread it to the rest of the world is quite curious. C seems absurd because they would have to have been smart enough to release the virus somewhere a long way away from the lab to make it look like an animal jump.
But assuming it is B these would be my steps:
Start treating China like we did the USSR in the cold war and go to a containment strategy. Taiwan needs to be the line in the sand China cannot cross.
Immediately start decoupling economically, US investors should not be funding Chinese tech companies and we start importing from other countries in Asia and South/Central America.
Immediately kick all Chinese students out of US colleges and research institutions. We can't let them have the technological innovation that comes with freedom without offering their people freedom.
Tell Europe it's time to grow a pair and present their own deterrence to Russia, we can't continue to pay to protect Europe and stare down China, also get out of the middle east wars.
Hard sanctions on Iran. Iran, Russia, and China are working together now and this is a huge threat to American economic security.
If we push on 2&3 I think eventually China will have to face the contradictions of Authoritarianism just like the USSR did and the current CCP will collapse on itself. If the people of China see the freedoms of Western civilization and the higher quality of life and realize that their government is preventing that the nation will fail. Unfortunately, Americans are becoming less free and unless we reverse that course the strategy will fail.
Ernest wrote:
There are scenarios beyond what's proposed for discussion.
This post attempts to present as balanced discussion -- when obvious intent is to foment anti-China/Chinese sentiment.
Some proposed scenarios, and postulated punitive measures, are beyond ridiculous - as if China would intentionally infect their own population - but then undertake measures to limit transmission more effective than seen elsewhere.
Or as if any country, US included, would undertake what amounts to a declaration of war with the world's most populated country, second largest economy, largest military, third-largest by area, and possessing hundreds (that we know of) long-range nuclear weapons.
If you're pulling What-If's out of thin air, if you substituted "China" for "US" in your post, would one expect an international mob to overrun the US and change its leadership?
3lonMu$k wrote:
3 scenarios for discussion:
A) The leak was unintentional and CCP govt officials actually had no idea & got blindsided
B) The leak was unintentional but is revealed to have been covered up by CCP govt officials to protect China’s image
C) The leak was intentional, planned and covered up by CCP govt officials
What should be done in each? Should countries retaliate, and it what way? Trade embargoes, military action, forceful removal of Xi, removal from UN/alliances, just writing off any outstanding debts to China as completed, etc? How is accountability measured in this type of scenario, and would it be worthwhile to pursue?
Discus
Yes, because China is known for the love and care they give to their citizens.
3lonMu$k wrote:
3 scenarios for discussion:
A) The leak was unintentional and CCP govt officials actually had no idea & got blindsided
B) The leak was unintentional but is revealed to have been covered up by CCP govt officials to protect China’s image
C) The leak was intentional, planned and covered up by CCP govt officials
What should be done in each? Should countries retaliate, and it what way? Trade embargoes, military action, forceful removal of Xi, removal from UN/alliances, just writing off any outstanding debts to China as completed, etc? How is accountability measured in this type of scenario, and would it be worthwhile to pursue?
Discus
If we found that Trump knew about it and how dangerous it was going to be but tried to hide it, what should be done?
Oh WAIT!!!!!
fisky wrote:
Scenario B is the most likely. It was an unintentional leak from the lab and China aggressively covered it up. At this point, it's impossible to know with certainty so nothing will happen.
Here's what I wrote a month ago. I've edited it to add a few facts that I omitted originally.
Scenario We're Being Told
1. Horseshoe bats living in a remote cave somehow traveled hundreds of kilometers to Wuhan.
2. That Wuhan has China's top infectious disease lab is a coincidence.
3. That this lab has known containment concerns is a coincidence.
4. That this lab is studying coronavirus in bats, most likely this species of bat, is a coincidence.
5. That Wuhan scientists published papers showing "aspects" of gain of function with coronaviruses is a coincidence. (In layman's terms, "Gain of function" means the ability to infect humans.)
6. That somehow, the virus jumped from these bats to an unknown species.
7. That this unknown species somehow first surfaced at the Wuhan wet market hundreds of kilometers from the bats' natural habitat.
8. That even though an exhaustive search for infected pangolins or other infected species was conducted for a year by Chinese scientists and not one infected animal was found, it is still the most likely cause of the virus jumping to humans.
9. That the spike protein being uniquely adapted to attach to humans versus any other creature on earth is a coincidence.
Most Likely Scenario
1. Bats were captured in remote caves and transported to China's #1 virology lab in Wuhan. We know for a fact that this was being done.
2. Since these bats were responsible for the SARS 2 outbreak, we can assume with near certainty that some of these bats were being studied in the Wuhan facility.
3. Faulty containment procedures led to one of the scientists getting infected and spreading the virus outside the facility. Again, we know for a fact that safety protocols in this lab had raised concerns in 2017 about this exact event occurring. In fact, it had even happened in the past in China's other labs.
4. We know with certainty that China is very secretive and with almost 100% certainty would fabricate a cover story to prevent international outrage had this occurred. Hence, we have the Scenario We're Being Told.
Bottom line: The case for the virus originating from the lab is so much more likely that it's laughable that we're being asked to believe the propaganda story.
If your claim that the virus emerged from the lab is based on a premise that the bats are too remote from Wuhan to be the source, then you have a very weak premise. Bat guano is an essential product in Chinese medicine. There is a huge industry in China that sends workers into remote bat caves to harvest bat guano. Also, rapid Chinese economic growth has resulted in a massive expansion into previously wild environments, putting agriculture and residential development very close to bat caves that used to be hundreds of miles from civilization. That is all in addition to trapping bats for sale in wet markets, which is also common in China. If there is a cover up in China, it is probably one that is trying to down play the connection to bats because China does not want to pull back from developing wild areas where there are massive bat colonies in caves and does not want to regulate the very popular trade in bat guano for Chinese medicine. It would be like trying to ban people from eating beef in the US and banning cattle grazing close to residential areas.
Also, it took 14 years for scientists to confirm the origin of SARS. If COVID 19 escaped from a lab, it would be very easy to trace the genetics back to the lab. And you would have to assume that the Chinese are not just bad at lab safety but are also completely incompetent at identifying and controlling an outbreak from a lab. People who work in ID labs know that they have to be incredibly careful whenever they have any symptoms of illness. You isolate and undergo testing to make sure there hasn't been a contamination issue at the lab. And you contact trace to contain the virus. The Chinese are very good at this after their experience with SARS and MERS. Finally, COVID 19 has not been shown to be transmissible via fomites. It is almost exclusively transmitted via aerosols. The lab accident theory presumes transmission via fomites. You would have to have something go crazy wrong to make a very small sample of the virus to become aerosolized and then have someone breath in enough to contract the virus. So, the lab theory requires multiple layers of failures.
The zoonotic route is a lot like identifying hawks that sit on telephone polls along the highway. You have to have a lot of good reasons why it isn't a red tailed hawk. And you have to come up with a lot of good reasons why it isn't a zoonotic disease. MERS, SARS, Ebola, Zika, West Nile, Lime disease, HIV, TB, small pox, hantavirus, and so on are all zoonotic diseases. Since SARS emerged in 2003, China has been doing everything wrong when it comes to preventing zoonotic transmission of a new virus. They have been developing further and further into previously wild areas and the market for wildlife animal products has grown almost exponentially as more and more Chinese move into the middle class and can afford exotic dishes and Chinese medicines.
Alien Observer wrote:
It's got nothing to do with Trump. Or Biden. Or any political 'leader'. Stop listening to politicians. Listen to the real policy makers, movers and shakers.
Unlikely you, I don't listen to "political" "leaders."
You have never worked on classified military projects. I have. Compartmentalization. Project have public faces and multiple classified faces.
Answer this non-political question. Why was the U.S. Army funding bat deadly sars virus research at UNC-Chapel Hill based on bat virus sample paid to be collected in Wuhan, China over 7 years ago?
I know a possible answer that you will never come up with.
The "leak" was 100% intentional, and this is all meant to be a catalyst for the World Economic Forum to bring about their Great Reset Agenda.
Is this really not obvious? Bill Gates and the World Economic Forum sponsored Agenda 201, a fictional, strategic coronavirus exercise in OCTOBER 2019. Must have been really great timing. If you cannot see that this was all planned at this point, I am sorry but you can't be helped.
migroc wrote:
If we found that Trump knew about it and how dangerous it was going to be but tried to hide it, what should be done?
Oh WAIT!!!!!
Nothing would happen to Trump in U.S. courts because a president cannot be held liable for decisions they made a part of the job. Nothing happened to the president when two nukes were dropped on Japan as a less costly way to end an expensive war.
International courts might see it another way. Illegal biological warfare to get back at someone who embarrassed them.
Remember what Melanie Trump said, "He Will Punch Back 10 Times Harder."
rojo wrote:
DeBron Lames wrote:
US companies should be re-locating production of out China and to Latin America. This would had the double advantage of hurting China's growth while providing solid jobs for Latin Americans, stabilizing those countries and giving them a reason to stay put, instead of trying to feel to America.
Great thread. And we have a winner. I'm not actually sure it work but like you thinking outside the box.
I would literally pay an extra $200 if i could buy an iphone not made in china. It blows my mind that all these woke apple employees don't see the hypocrisy. I preferred my old pixel phoen but my family members are all into facetime.
In my mind, the odds are well over 50% that it came from the lab.
You would have to give up your free markets to see this happen. When tariffs went up on Chinese goods, production shifted to Vietnam. Also, supply chains adjusted so that goods with Chinese components had their US assembly operations moved to countries that did not have trade barriers with China.
If your goal was to make sure this never happened again, you would actually want to have closer cooperation with China instead of making this into some sort of casus belli. China is not going to reform its relationship with the natural environment and there will be another zoonotic disease emerging from China. I would much rather have international scientist on the ground working in cooperation with the Chinese than to leave it all to CCP propaganda ministers.
But if you want to hurt the Chinese, you would need to get most of the developed world on your side and get China kicked out of the WTO. Otherwise, the economic blowback from any unilateral actions would be greater than any harm to China.
ummm, no wrote:
Alien Observer wrote:
It's got nothing to do with Trump. Or Biden. Or any political 'leader'. Stop listening to politicians. Listen to the real policy makers, movers and shakers.
Unlikely you, I don't listen to "political" "leaders."
You have never worked on classified military projects. I have. Compartmentalization. Project have public faces and multiple classified faces.
Answer this non-political question. Why was the U.S. Army funding bat deadly sars virus research at UNC-Chapel Hill based on bat virus sample paid to be collected in Wuhan, China over 7 years ago?
I know a possible answer that you will never come up with.
Umm right, you worked on classified military projects and you're posting about it on a running forum?
Of course you did. We believe you.
Like always, nothing will ever be done in any case, just like when Malaysian Airlines plane got shot down by Russia.
I'm sure CIA already knows why and how corona virus started. But is USA willing to start a war with China?
The answer is NO.
Precious Roy wrote:
rojo wrote:
Great thread. And we have a winner. I'm not actually sure it work but like you thinking outside the box.
I would literally pay an extra $200 if i could buy an iphone not made in china. It blows my mind that all these woke apple employees don't see the hypocrisy. I preferred my old pixel phoen but my family members are all into facetime.
In my mind, the odds are well over 50% that it came from the lab.
You would have to give up your free markets to see this happen. When tariffs went up on Chinese goods, production shifted to Vietnam. Also, supply chains adjusted so that goods with Chinese components had their US assembly operations moved to countries that did not have trade barriers with China.
If your goal was to make sure this never happened again, you would actually want to have closer cooperation with China instead of making this into some sort of casus belli. China is not going to reform its relationship with the natural environment and there will be another zoonotic disease emerging from China. I would much rather have international scientist on the ground working in cooperation with the Chinese than to leave it all to CCP propaganda ministers.
But if you want to hurt the Chinese, you would need to get most of the developed world on your side and get China kicked out of the WTO. Otherwise, the economic blowback from any unilateral actions would be greater than any harm to China.
Dyood, what's with the Chinaphobia?
China Flu wrote:
Could we fairly call it the “China Flu” in that case?
Of course we can, if rename the Spanish Flu the 'Murican Flu, because it really started in Kansas.
I also though we should rename HIV to the US Virus, since it seemed most all the early patients were from San Francisco, and before that in 1971 NYC, but i was wrong as it seems to have originated in the Democratic Republic of the Congo decades before that
How does this help anyone? Not at all.
I guess the answer is you can't do anything as they're the most powerful country in the world.
Maybe if UK, France, Germany, the Americas, Norway etc all worked together it might have an effect. But any one country on its own doesn't stand a chance
Alien Observer wrote:
ummm, no wrote:
Unlikely you, I don't listen to "political" "leaders."
You have never worked on classified military projects. I have. Compartmentalization. Project have public faces and multiple classified faces.
Answer this non-political question. Why was the U.S. Army funding bat deadly sars virus research at UNC-Chapel Hill based on bat virus sample paid to be collected in Wuhan, China over 7 years ago?
I know a possible answer that you will never come up with.
Umm right, you worked on classified military projects and you're posting about it on a running forum?
Of course you did. We believe you.
You have no clue what classified means. You are far above your IQ level here, boy.
We? Really? I did not realize you are the elected spokesboy on this running forum. Has there been election been recount certified yet?
I will dare to post a link to link to what classified is. You (We) need to notify the proper authorities ASAP that someone dared to post the following.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information