5679 wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
He has never run faster than 3m37 at any time. So where are the 8 secs coming from that Komen ran? A syringe?
Let me know when was the last time Joshua trained specifically for 1500m.
Let me know the last time an athlete improved from Div 2 level over 1500 to world championship medalist level - just through "training".
Komen is lucky to have survived.
Literally.
rekrunner wrote:
Petterss wrote:
You do not understand the sport at all. When you say that Cheptegei has the speed to run 7:20 because he can run 3:37, that is like saying Rupp has the speed to break 26 because he once barely broke 13. A high school kid who runs a 55 second 400 then has the speed to break the mile record. So what?
That's cute.
It makes little sense to talk about speed alone.
It's a rookie mistake to think he *can* only run 3:37, just because he *has* only run 3:37.
He just did it at altitude off of base training.
His goal now will be to extend the speed that he has developed, rather than increase his speed.
That is even more cute. Everyone's goal is to run faster for longer. If that's the goal it has to happen, right? Surprisingly, no. You just show that you dont understand the sport if you think Cheptegei or any elie athlete - especially a world record holder - can translate their speed at a shorter distance into a performance at double the distance. Rudisha should have trained to run 3.22 for the mile. After all - he had the speed. You are ludicrous.
*elite
El Guerrouj could had beaten this record in his prime 1999 but he rarely run this distance
Bruxelles 1999:
A surprise from an "unknown" East African runner in this distance in the next 3 months is very likely. Remember the surprising 18 years runner from Ethiopia in the final 3000m steeplechase (Doha 2019).
Armstronglivs wrote:
That is even more cute. Everyone's goal is to run faster for longer. If that's the goal it has to happen, right? Surprisingly, no. You just show that you dont understand the sport if you think Cheptegei or any elie athlete - especially a world record holder - can translate their speed at a shorter distance into a performance at double the distance. Rudisha should have trained to run 3.22 for the mile. After all - he had the speed. You are ludicrous.
That's sad. I could understand a newbie making such rookie mistakes. You were a newbie in the '70s. Training has changed since then.
I don't say it has to happen, or that it will happen, but that it fits in with the structure of modern training, that would develop race pace INTENSITY first, then transition to EXTENSION of INTENSITY.
Not everyone would have the same goal "now". For example, a Lydiard goal, "now", at this point in the training, might be jumping up a hill with 2-hour long runs on the weekend.
It helps to understand that 3:37 is not his maximum 1500m SPEED, but a prescribed RACE PACE INTENSITY:
3:37 -> 57.87 seconds/400m (96% of 5000m time)
7:20 -> 58.7 seconds/400m (97% of 5000m time)
12:35 -> 60.4 seconds/400m (5000m time)
rekrunner wrote:
The shoes made a big impact on marathon times
Then prove it. The evidence is generally contrary; the bar of proof is high. 2:05 was first ran in 1999. 2:03 in 2008. 2:01 in 2018. Is there some kind of anomaly in the progression?
Only 2 runners have gone 2:01, and only 5 have gone sub 2:03. One of the 2:02's was before magic shoes existed, as were more 2:03's than I need bother counting. 1% of 123 minutes is 1:14, which should put many of them in the same league as Bekele and Kipchoge and give Dennis Kimetto a claim to being the real WR holder.
In particular, Bekele's outlier success should surprise noone. Did he have magic shoes when he ran 26:17? Or was he just plain better?
high school xc coach wrote:
Oh Please wrote:
I hope he does get it. I don't think he'd try if he didn't have training that indicated it was possible. I really didn't think he'd do sub 12:37 but he did, and the 10000 was even easier.
The 3000 of course will be harder, precisely because JC is the 10000 record holder as well. It indicates to me that he is endurance based, and maybe not quite enough speed. Keep in mind the other two sub 12:40 guys, KB and Geb, both ended up in the mid 7:20s and they did not have sub 3:30 speed either, only Komen did.
If he was to try, I'll say it's a race for the number 2 time, and he'll end up with 7:23.5
ya. kb and geb have to be the logical comparison points. both 3:31/3:32 guys, I believe. so not slow at all. The 3k I think is just a different animal that can't be made sense of by 1500 and 5k times.
I mean, how the heck did Mo Farah not run a low 7:20. he seems like the guy who should have been able to make a run at the record. But I've rewatched some of his 3ks. low 7:30s and it appeared he was pushing. And he almost always seemed to be within a couple seconds of peak fitness. Was able to pop huge halfs, 10s, 5s and 1500s within relatively close time frames.
I just think there is something mentally special about going ALMOST all the way out for the twice the distance of a 1500. The 5k you can almost get in a rhythm and just bang it out. The 1500 stings like nothing else, but mentally you know it is only 3:30, so you can grit and bear. 3k hurts almost as bad as the 1500, but is more than double the time requirement. Perhaps with 2400 meters of pacing it is way more doable, but who out there has the talent to pace that and wants to sacrifice their own race?
^This. I always felt that 3000m was the worst track distance. When a 1500 race starts to feel like sheer hell it´s only one lap left. In a 3k it´s 1,5k left.
rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
That is even more cute. Everyone's goal is to run faster for longer. If that's the goal it has to happen, right? Surprisingly, no. You just show that you dont understand the sport if you think Cheptegei or any elie athlete - especially a world record holder - can translate their speed at a shorter distance into a performance at double the distance. Rudisha should have trained to run 3.22 for the mile. After all - he had the speed. You are ludicrous.
That's sad. I could understand a newbie making such rookie mistakes. You were a newbie in the '70s. Training has changed since then.
I don't say it has to happen, or that it will happen, but that it fits in with the structure of modern training, that would develop race pace INTENSITY first, then transition to EXTENSION of INTENSITY.
Not everyone would have the same goal "now". For example, a Lydiard goal, "now", at this point in the training, might be jumping up a hill with 2-hour long runs on the weekend.
It helps to understand that 3:37 is not his maximum 1500m SPEED, but a prescribed RACE PACE INTENSITY:
3:37 -> 57.87 seconds/400m (96% of 5000m time)
7:20 -> 58.7 seconds/400m (97% of 5000m time)
12:35 -> 60.4 seconds/400m (5000m time)
Complete manure. He ran 3.37 in a 1500 race. It wasn't a pace training session for a longer distance. He has run 1500 races before, but never beaten 3.37. To reinforce the utter stupidity of your "analysis", no 1500m runner enters an 800m race to run it at 1500 pace. And no 5k runner chooses to race a shorter race at the pace of a longer distance - unless they like to lose, and badly. Words like "extension of intensity" are gibberish coming from your mouth. Alternatively, it can simply be summed up as doping - which is what doping does, make you run faster for longer.
Armstronglivs wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
That's sad. I could understand a newbie making such rookie mistakes. You were a newbie in the '70s. Training has changed since then.
I don't say it has to happen, or that it will happen, but that it fits in with the structure of modern training, that would develop race pace INTENSITY first, then transition to EXTENSION of INTENSITY.
Not everyone would have the same goal "now". For example, a Lydiard goal, "now", at this point in the training, might be jumping up a hill with 2-hour long runs on the weekend.
It helps to understand that 3:37 is not his maximum 1500m SPEED, but a prescribed RACE PACE INTENSITY:
3:37 -> 57.87 seconds/400m (96% of 5000m time)
7:20 -> 58.7 seconds/400m (97% of 5000m time)
12:35 -> 60.4 seconds/400m (5000m time)
Complete manure. He ran 3.37 in a 1500 race. It wasn't a pace training session for a longer distance. He has run 1500 races before, but never beaten 3.37. To reinforce the utter stupidity of your "analysis", no 1500m runner enters an 800m race to run it at 1500 pace. And no 5k runner chooses to race a shorter race at the pace of a longer distance - unless they like to lose, and badly. Words like "extension of intensity" are gibberish coming from your mouth. Alternatively, it can simply be summed up as doping - which is what doping does, make you run faster for longer.
A true 3:37 1500 cannot run 12:35. It's not possible.
Cheptegei's 5000m world record is 7:33 3000m pace. So, it's not a fait accompli that he will break Komen's record. But his likely 5000m shape for a race in cooler conditions that day was 12:29, which is 7:29.4 3000m pace. So, I think that in top shape he will be closer to the record than anyone here thinks.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Complete manure. He ran 3.37 in a 1500 race. It wasn't a pace training session for a longer distance. He has run 1500 races before, but never beaten 3.37. To reinforce the utter stupidity of your "analysis", no 1500m runner enters an 800m race to run it at 1500 pace. And no 5k runner chooses to race a shorter race at the pace of a longer distance - unless they like to lose, and badly. Words like "extension of intensity" are gibberish coming from your mouth. Alternatively, it can simply be summed up as doping - which is what doping does, make you run faster for longer.
A true 3:37 1500 cannot run 12:35. It's not possible.
That's true. But he's likely not "true" at either. Probably a 3.33 runner over 1500 and doped to the gills when he ran 12.35.
xczvzxcv wrote:
Cheptegei's 5000m world record is 7:33 3000m pace. So, it's not a fait accompli that he will break Komen's record. But his likely 5000m shape for a race in cooler conditions that day was 12:29, which is 7:29.4 3000m pace. So, I think that in top shape he will be closer to the record than anyone here thinks.
I would be surprised if he could beat 7.25. He's not as fast as Komen over 1500 - maybe low 3.30's at best. The 3k is closer to the 1500 than 5k. It also needs md speed. In the past the 3k record holders were top 1500/mile runners, like Jazy and Keino.
Well,, wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
ya. kb and geb have to be the logical comparison points. both 3:31/3:32 guys, I believe. so not slow at all. The 3k I think is just a different animal that can't be made sense of by 1500 and 5k times.
I mean, how the heck did Mo Farah not run a low 7:20. he seems like the guy who should have been able to make a run at the record. But I've rewatched some of his 3ks. low 7:30s and it appeared he was pushing. And he almost always seemed to be within a couple seconds of peak fitness. Was able to pop huge halfs, 10s, 5s and 1500s within relatively close time frames.
I just think there is something mentally special about going ALMOST all the way out for the twice the distance of a 1500. The 5k you can almost get in a rhythm and just bang it out. The 1500 stings like nothing else, but mentally you know it is only 3:30, so you can grit and bear. 3k hurts almost as bad as the 1500, but is more than double the time requirement. Perhaps with 2400 meters of pacing it is way more doable, but who out there has the talent to pace that and wants to sacrifice their own race?
^This. I always felt that 3000m was the worst track distance. When a 1500 race starts to feel like sheer hell it´s only one lap left. In a 3k it´s 1,5k left.
Olympic Marathon is worse
Almost full distance with a 400 tacked on
Jonathan Gault wrote:
Hold on a second. The title of the video says this record is UNBEATABLE yet it also says one man can break it? Only one of those things can be true.
obviously not familiar with these clickbait vids from this guy...they are cringe.
Well,, wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
ya. kb and geb have to be the logical comparison points. both 3:31/3:32 guys, I believe. so not slow at all. The 3k I think is just a different animal that can't be made sense of by 1500 and 5k times.
I mean, how the heck did Mo Farah not run a low 7:20. he seems like the guy who should have been able to make a run at the record. But I've rewatched some of his 3ks. low 7:30s and it appeared he was pushing. And he almost always seemed to be within a couple seconds of peak fitness. Was able to pop huge halfs, 10s, 5s and 1500s within relatively close time frames.
I just think there is something mentally special about going ALMOST all the way out for the twice the distance of a 1500. The 5k you can almost get in a rhythm and just bang it out. The 1500 stings like nothing else, but mentally you know it is only 3:30, so you can grit and bear. 3k hurts almost as bad as the 1500, but is more than double the time requirement. Perhaps with 2400 meters of pacing it is way more doable, but who out there has the talent to pace that and wants to sacrifice their own race?
^This. I always felt that 3000m was the worst track distance. When a 1500 race starts to feel like sheer hell it´s only one lap left. In a 3k it´s 1,5k left.
You know that for the same runner, the 3000 is run at a slower pace than the 1500, right? By your logic, a 5000 would feel like sheer hell with 3.5K left.
Bad Wigins wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
The shoes made a big impact on marathon times
Then prove it. The evidence is generally contrary; the bar of proof is high. 2:05 was first ran in 1999. 2:03 in 2008. 2:01 in 2018. Is there some kind of anomaly in the progression?
Only 2 runners have gone 2:01, and only 5 have gone sub 2:03. One of the 2:02's was before magic shoes existed, as were more 2:03's than I need bother counting. 1% of 123 minutes is 1:14, which should put many of them in the same league as Bekele and Kipchoge and give Dennis Kimetto a claim to being the real WR holder.
In particular, Bekele's outlier success should surprise noone. Did he have magic shoes when he ran 26:17? Or was he just plain better?
Seriously?
Here is some general non-contrary evidence:
- Kipchoge set the world record in new shoes in Sep. 2018
- the top 5 fastest times were set since 2018
- 7 out of the top 10 fastest times were set since 2018
What about Americans? -- here is what "letsrun" wrote about Americans after Chicago 2019:
Chicago and INEOS 1:59 Challenge By The Numbers
9 –number of times an American had broken 2:12 in Chicago in the last 12 years.
10 –number of Americans that broke 2:12 in Chicago on Sunday.
If you want to see how big of an impact the new shoes are making, just take a look at the US men in Chicago. More Americans broke 2:12 in one race than in the entire preceding decade in Chicago. According to Race Results Weekly, the top 18 American men across the line all ran a personal best. Of the 10 men who broke 2:12, eight of them were either wearing the Vaporflys or a secret unreleased shoe from another company (presumably their attempted copy of a Vaporfly).
And these papers are timely -- the ink is still drying:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2021.653173/fullhttps://researchers.one/articles/20.02.00005Armstronglivs wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
It helps to understand that 3:37 is not his maximum 1500m SPEED, but a prescribed RACE PACE INTENSITY:
3:37 -> 57.87 seconds/400m (96% of 5000m time)
7:20 -> 58.7 seconds/400m (97% of 5000m time)
12:35 -> 60.4 seconds/400m (5000m time)
Complete manure. He ran 3.37 in a 1500 race. It wasn't a pace training session for a longer distance. He has run 1500 races before, but never beaten 3.37. To reinforce the utter stupidity of your "analysis", no 1500m runner enters an 800m race to run it at 1500 pace. And no 5k runner chooses to race a shorter race at the pace of a longer distance - unless they like to lose, and badly. Words like "extension of intensity" are gibberish coming from your mouth. Alternatively, it can simply be summed up as doping - which is what doping does, make you run faster for longer.
In modern training, an 800m/1500m runner wouldn't train like a 5000m/10000m runner.
Cheptegei didn't lose so badly, running 1500m at near his 5000m pace..
That 1500m was ran at nearly 4000ft and I don't think that was an important race, he was likely training through it.
He probably could have ran 3:32 in Monaco around that time with proper rest.
What is the threshold that separates a "hobbyjogger" from a "sub-elite" runner?
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