Disappointing 5k time trial during marathon training and questions on how to improve!

This is the route itself, if you have MMR, and it has topo map:

https://www.mapmyrun.com/routes/view/4337573854

Based on your posts here, your training isn't conducive to 5K at all. It's a huge understatement to say you "haven't done much speedwork"... you've done nothing resembling speedwork.

You need to do fast 200's, 400's, 1k repeats at 5k pace, mile reps at 10k pace, etc, the whole range of quality work if you want to run a good 5k.

And don't worry about "peaking too early" before your marathon. If I remember your posts, your marathon is not until October. You could spend a couple months training and sharpening for 5k, and then starting a new training cycle for a fall marathon.

Ok, thank you!

I'm training for the marathon, but thought a 5k TT would give me some speed.

I appreciate the feedback and you have a good point about doing the 5k, and then another block for the marathon.

5k speed would require 5k , marathon speed requires marathon workouts. Both are on opposite sides of the speed spectrum.

I wouldn’t over analyze it. Focus on one first and build your way up from there. If the marathon isn’t until October then you have over half a Year dedicated to training for one event. That’s perpetual marathon mode and won’t improve your speed. Focus on some other stuff first maybe and just consistent running with one long run? There’s many other calculators besides McMillan. I personally like Tinmans

jecht wrote:

3) Why does McMillan not allow you to use the pace calculator? I tried today and it threw me behind a paywall and asked me to sign up. I was able to use it just yesterday.

The McMillan calculator may be like some sites (including Runners World) that let you see them a few times in a month and then ask you to subscribe. Clear your browsing history, which should delete the cookie that tells McMillan how often you've visited lately, and try again.

Thank you JamesD2 and also thanks Average. I know I can rely on you for good advice.

jecht wrote:

I did a 5k time trial today and thought I'd be a little bit faster than I was at this point. I've been running 40-45 mpw the last few weeks and at least 30-35 since late Feb. It was humid and 81'F , with 70% humidity at 6 p.m. in Columbus, Ohio.

...

I'm disappointed because my 5k pace was averaging only 40 seconds faster than my EZ to moderate LR pace I did on Saturday (1:53:51 for 14 miles, 8:07-ish effort, but it felt strong and effortless). Yet during the 5k, I got MUCH slower as I went on. I also made sure I hydrated well today and stretched longer than normal/warmed up with more effort than usual, plus the course itself isn't too hilly.

I don't know what kind of training that you've been doing lately, nor your history, but I think a lot of the other posters have identified the same issue:

If you are doing "marathon training" for an October race, this would be the "base-building" phase, not the 5km TT phase. I understand that you want gauge your progress, but the test you chose certainly wasn't geared to the systems that you have been training recently (if you are in base-building" mode). When I am in base-building mode, I look for a general trend of improvement on known courses at the same level of sub-maximal effort. I don't know if you use a HR monitor, but you can keep an eye on your HR-to-pace maybe on a stretch of road that you regularly run.

If you already have a good aerobic base and decide you want to use the time to develop speed/strength, then your training should be entirely different. As an example, I'll begin preparing for December marathon in August, but until then, I'm following a half-marathon training concept because I feel I need that kind of strength/endurance training.

Whatever you choose to do, just be careful about expecting to see gains in one area when you've mostly been training for gains in other areas. It's hard to do everything at once. Good luck!

A speedwork tuneup for a marathon is a 10k at the shortest. If you haven’t touched speed stuff it’s not surprising that you can’t get it going for a 5k. You don’t need to worry about this at all, it’s a completely different energy system from the marathon. As long as your long hard runs are going well your marathon training is going well. But again, if you want to work on your power, a hard 10k is better than a 5k. Many elites run a half marathon 6-8 weeks out from their marathon, but since you are slower that might be too far and 10-15k is better

Same experiences, but not training for Marathon. But I do a lot of threshold work but have a hard time running 15-20 s faster per mile. Thresholds and slightly slower paces train mostly the slower twitch and running fast for less than 30min requires also the faster oxidative fibres to be well developed and this happens at around your 5k pace. So you just need more faster reps both short to add speed, but also longer 2-5min repeats at 5k, but with enough rest.

VO2 max reps are very efficient but can be hard to recover from if used extensively. Your VO2max pace is more your 2-3km race pace. You can do reps at your 5k more safely and still progress well.

How old are you?

I think speedwork would be pointless because 23 minutes is a slow 5k, especially for someone running 40 mpw. There must be underlying issues like age or a difficult course.

1) How much does the heat/humidity truly affect races? Heat and humidity can have a big effect. My estimate That could be worth 0:20-1:00. Google something like "Dew Point Pace Correction."

2) How do you deal with a side stitch at mile 2.5 of a 5k? You don't have to deal with a side stitch because you won't get one. Maybe make sure that you are well hydrated beforehand if that was the problem.

3) Why does McMillan not allow you to use the pace calculator? It works fine for me.

By your own admission:

You've really only been running 30-35 mpw. That's not that much, but it's still plenty of miles for improving from the 22-23 minute 5k range.

You're not doing any easy runs. You're just running low enough mileage that you can recover well enough even though you are running every run as a tempo. When you start doing workouts and running 400-1200m intervals at 5k pace you will realize on the days in between that your normal pace now is not really your easy pace.

if your marathon is not until october, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get a cycle of 5k training in now. Also, that weather would have a significant affect on running a 5k for most people. not sure how much, because the rain should have helped a decent amount on the back end.

I'm 37, 5'2'', 138. On the short side.

The course wasn't hilly.

I get everyone's posts now and will train the correct systems.

I think I went out too fast and I had a side stitch at mile 2.5.

It was a bit humid and then it downpoured at mile 2 or so but I'm not going to use that as an excuse.

I do run a bit at EZ pace, unless what you're saying is I'm going too fast for my EZ pace?

I ran 6 miles on Sunday at 9:20 pace (EZ)

Monday I did a 6-mile tempo

Tuesday I did 8 at slightly faster EZ pace (1:07-ish), or 8:28 pace.

Wed. I did the 5k trial

Thanks HS XC Coach.

I'll take advice here and do the 5k block, actually, as there'll be enough time to do that before I start Pfitzinger in June (18 weeks from June to the Marathon).

Contrary to many who believe you need speed work, I believe you are either running too much, or running too fast, or both.

One mistake many runner make is not slowing down for easy runs, which should be at least 80% of your runs. Running at moderate pace all the time put too much stress on your body, and when your do so at relatively high mileage (compared to your mileage before the marathon training) you are burning out, and the training is not productive.

Training is not just put your body under stress, it’s also important to give your body chance to recover and become stronger.

Even though you are training for a marathon, not a 5k, your 5k should improve too if this is your first marathon training. Under performance is sign of over reaching or over training. Especially if you are feeling fatigued all the time, then my recommendation is to take a few days break immediately, when you resume, cut back on both speed and volume, if you are feeling fine then increases your volume, back to where you were, but not speed.

otter1 wrote:

I think speedwork would be pointless because 23 minutes is a slow 5k, especially for someone running 40 mpw. There must be underlying issues like age or a difficult course.

With age the muscle fibres loose power and efficiency and the pace goes down, but the aerobic work is comparable to faster and younger runners. The principles of training methods would still apply.

I try to keep the EZ runs around 9:20 to 8:40 pace.

I may do tempos at 8:05-8:20 pace.

I haven't touched track work yet.

Are you saying the EZ runs should be even slower?

40 mpw is average, high of 50 (last week) and I started off at 21 for a half-week in late Feb., then steadily increased to 30-35-40, but I've done cutback weeks every 4th week as well.

I'm 37 and have short legs (only 5'2''), so is that a factor?