Really dumb running advice I hear parroted

great thread jamin

Yeah, misconception #1 is generalized from an old study on weightlifters that has nothing to do with running and #2 might as well say "to avoid injury, don't train."

Hardloper wrote:

Yeah, misconception #1 is generalized from an old study on weightlifters that has nothing to do with running and #2 might as well say "to avoid injury, don't train."

+1, I read something about that on Wikipedia.

jamin wrote:

1. "You need 10 days to absorb the full benefits of a workout" / "The hay is in the barn" / etc.

This is just dumb. Of course you can cram in some extra fitness 4-5 days before a race and still be fresh.

2. Avoiding speedwork to avoid injury.

The most common injuries such as tibial stress fractures are coming from your 20-mile long runs on the concrete, not your 200m repeats on the spongy track.

I'd like to hear HRE talk about marathon training back in the day. I'm shocked when I see some of those training logs. Those guys would back off from 130 to 90 miles in the week before. I guess you could call that a taper! But they were still packing in the miles. It wasn't like "5 miles EZ for the three days before goal race."

I'm not sure you can gain much fitness 4-5 days before a goal race. But you can definitely put some finishing touches on, but running some short, not-terribly-stressful repeats at race pace +/- 5-10 secs mile. Just grooving race pace.

It actually does take 10 days to get 100% of the benefits from a hard workout, but because supercompensation happens at a log decay rate, most of the benefits will be felt within 4-5 days and any soreness will be gone too.

The track being spongy and the concrete being hard has nothing to do with stress fractures, particularly if you do both in spongy shoes. Overtraining is what it is wherever it's done.

If you had to pick a primary cause, it's being too dumb to dial things back when you notice a stress reaction developing.

Jamin knows so much about everything, but is still so bad at everything - it's confusing to a normal minded person like me.

Thinking that a tibial stress fracture is among the most common running injuries seems dumb to me. Might be up there with your thinking that vaccines are scarier than COVID.

Bythebay12 wrote:

It actually does take 10 days to get 100% of the benefits from a hard workout, but because supercompensation happens at a log decay rate, most of the benefits will be felt within 4-5 days and any soreness will be gone too.

I defy you to define "supercompensation" in a truly meaningful way with reference to every distance from 100 meters up to a marathon?

jamin wrote:

1. "You need 10 days to absorb the full benefits of a workout" / "The hay is in the barn" / etc.

This is just dumb. Of course you can cram in some extra fitness 4-5 days before a race and still be fresh.

2. Avoiding speedwork to avoid injury.

The most common injuries such as tibial stress fractures are coming from your 20-mile long runs on the concrete, not your 200m repeats on the spongy track.

For point 1, the workout you do 4-5 days before a race won't help you for that race, but as conditioning will help you in the next race. You can train through a race.

If you are running a peak or championship race, you can't increase your fitness the week of the race. You are better off staying sharp but rested.

You are misconstruing that point.

For point 2, if you avoid speedwork you will avoid getting faster.

But a lot of people will get injured doing too much speedwork.

It's about balance and that isn't easy.

I've never raced or trained for a marathon but (unless you're Michael Wardian) you're not going to have another marathon shortly after you race one.

So, I think it would be dumb to tell someone to do a real hard workout the Tuesday before a Saturday marathon.

I raced the 800/1500 and never did any serious workouts the week of any big race.

I don't see how marathon fitness would be gained in that period if you had been training for awhile.

anything couch js says.

With respect to your first point, one thing I've seen numerous times is people trying to squeeze in marathon training in the last couple of weeks, running great sessions, then having a terrible race, probably due to not being completely rested.

While I agree with you that you can always add fitness, sometimes it's good advice to not push too much just before the race. I guess this is more specific to marathons than shorter races.

Both statements are true and jamin is wrong.

Source:

800m PB in 1:54 and 1500m in 3:55.

And the longer the distance the more accurate the statements are.

Jiman wrote:

Jamin knows so much about everything, but is still so bad at everything - it's confusing to a normal minded person like me.

He is pretty good at running, and this is a thread on training.

pupil3142 wrote:

anything couch js says.

xD

jamin wrote:

1. "You need 10 days to absorb the full benefits of a workout" / "The hay is in the barn" / etc.

This is just dumb. Of course you can cram in some extra fitness 4-5 days before a race and still be fresh.

2. Avoiding speedwork to avoid injury.

The most common injuries such as tibial stress fractures are coming from your 20-mile long runs on the concrete, not your 200m repeats on the spongy track.

I think your example in #2 is wrong. I would guess that strained and pulled muscles are way more common than stress fractures, and those are almost always a result from faster running, not the 20M slog.

Also as an old Masters runner, IF the longer stuff is more difficult and leads to more injuries why do older runners naturally gravitate towards the longer slower stuff? It's because it is easier on our aging bodies. I know plenty of 50 years olds that ran run over 15M but would struggle to get through 12x400 "fast".

Jiman wrote:

Jamin knows so much about everything, but is still so bad at everything - it's confusing to a normal minded person like me.

This is a Runningart2004 Lite thread. I'll stick with Joe Vigil's input over either, thanks.

Star wrote:

For point 1, the workout you do 4-5 days before a race won't help you for that race, but as conditioning will help you in the next race. You can train through a race.

If you are running a peak or championship race, you can't increase your fitness the week of the race. You are better off staying sharp but rested.

I think this is correct, but I've always looked at it a little differently. With a week to go, your absolute best is in the tank, you're not going to get fitter.

However, you can do a lot to come closer to your absolute best. Taper. Run short intervals at goal pace to "dial in" what goal pace will feel like. For example, prior to a big 800m, I'll do some 150m repeats to dial in the exact time I want to hit. Otherwise, I tend to go out too fast.

And... there is a lot you can do to sabotage your absolute best in the last week. You can train too hard. You can skip several days. I've also found that skipping the last two days completely before a big race was a mistake.

jamin wrote:

1. "You need 10 days to absorb the full benefits of a workout" / "The hay is in the barn" / etc.

This is just dumb. Of course you can cram in some extra fitness 4-5 days before a race and still be fresh.

2. Avoiding speedwork to avoid injury.

The most common injuries such as tibial stress fractures are coming from your 20-mile long runs on the concrete, not your 200m repeats on the spongy track.

#2 is really interesting. I think people forget that the 'organizing principle' of training (and life!) is stress. Lack of variety/new stress can cause injury, not just speedwork or long runs in isolation. Running easy all the time makes things weak and tired. Doing a 200s or hills is probably far better for injury prevention than a 10 mile easy run if you 'usually' do easy runs. Of course too much stress is bad too.

This is why things like strides, hills, running on a variety of surfaces (not just soft!), and progression runs have stuck around and will continue to be around for a long time. They give the body a small amount of stress/variety. Longer bouts of hard/easy training I think could fit into this framework too