What is Gun Control Really About?

CrispyChicken wrote:

CrispyChickenpoo1 wrote:

that's one (generous) interpretation.

also " militia" - Militias were a state based entity.

"people" -were only white land owners who could vote

"arms" -were muskets.

And Heller invented a right to self defense not listed in the Constitution but I suspect you don't have a problem with those interpretations when they work for you.

Actually, militias in Colonial America were locally based, often private, and each member was expected to provide their own equipment, including weapons, in defense of the local community. There was no reliance on a colonial or state government to protect local communities, at least in exigent circumstances like Indian raids or cross-border hostilities between settlements such as the border conflicts between Pennsylvanians and Marylanders. Usually, a prominent local citizen was elected captain of the local militia unit, or a persuasive person recruited a unit and thus became its captain. As the states were formed from the colonies, many state constitutions made every free male over a certain age (usually between 16 and 18) a member of the militia, but the expectation was that if called out in defense, you brought your own weapons for the initial muster. The government might provide supplies later, but reliance on the government was foolhardy.

The right to self-defense was invented by no man (or woman). It is a natural right endowed by your creator and thus unalienable.

Uncle Samson wrote:

Whether you are for, against or not sure on guns, here are some stats (mostly from the CDC) that must be considered to ensure factual context in this debate. I think many people will be surprised by the actual numbers. In my opinion they raise some big questions about the role of the press, what is really going on and why.

Number of deaths for top 10 annual leading causes of death in the US (from the CDC website):

Heart disease: 659,041

Cancer: 599,601

Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040

Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979

Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005

Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499

Diabetes: 87,647

Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565

Influenza and pneumonia: 49,783

Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511

Do you notice what is not on that list?

All Firearms deaths total are at about 39,707 a year. That is for accidental death, suicide and murder. That is roughly the same as the number of deaths from motor vehicle accidents.

Also ranking above all firearms deaths: Poisoning 75,041, Blood Poisoning 40,922, Parkinson's Disease 31,963, Liver Disease (chronic and alcohol related) about 40,000, Kidney disease and many other causes. I saw one stat saying that nearly 50,000 a year die from some aspect of opioid use.

All Firearms homicides rank about 31st on the list of all causes of death in the United States, at about 14,000 a year. 64% of those use handguns. Just 4% are from all rifles, including "assault rifles". So roughly 560 homicides a year are caused by all rifles, and some percentage of that number of 560 used "assault rifles". Some estimate the number of deaths from "assault rifles" to be roughly equal to Joe Biden's preferred firearm, the shotgun (at 2%). In 2018 373 people died in what are classified as "mass shootings" which I believe is any shooting in which 4 or more people are killed, be that domestic violence, gang shootings, workplace violence or the much sensationalized mass shootings we see on TV. You would think that millions were killed each year in mass shootings.

There are more than 328,000,000 people in the United States. 373 die each year from mass shootings. 560 die each year from all types of rifles, including "assault rifles". That is .000001 % of the population.

Any death that can be prevented, or any death rate that can be reduced, should be. I am by no means making light of a single death. We should be continually striving to improve life in every way possible. However, the priorities should be right and the focus, energy, PR, etc should be on the actual top causes of death and quality of life issues first.

Death in general cannot be prevented. Nor can a Utopia be created in which everyone always does good and nobody ever does bad. People are people and you cannot control or stop everyone from doing something bad, no matter what you do, no matter how many laws you enact, etc. Even if you could (you can't), that would mean zero freedom. Is zero freedom worth anything (not to mention that countries in which the populations are controlled the most tend to be murdered far more by their own governments).

So the Democrats and the President of the United States are prioritizing a "public health crisis" of guns, with a clear goal of taking guns away from the population at some point, if they can figure out a way to get there. The majority of the press supports this (why?) and pushes hard a false and sensationalized narrative, and does not share the types of facts listed in this post.

Despite their efforts, so far the public is not in favor of the kind of gun control they want to enact, but a slight majority is in favor of stricter gun laws, whatever that means. Presumably this support is at least significantly a result of the way the media reports on gun violence and not knowing what the actual stats are.

All this emotion and effort is being put forth for gun control and there is a heavy push to ban "assault rifles". Again, All firearm homicides are at about 14,000 a year from all causes (presumably the majority of these are perpetrated by criminals and not by law abiding citizens that legally own guns). 64% of those are handguns. Again, 560 die each year from all types of rifles, (.000001 % of the population) of which "assault rifles" are included as some percentage of that 560.

Meanwhile, about 660,000 people die each year from Heart Disease. 600,000 a year from Cancers. Those are over 2,000X greater causes of death than all rifles.

Why is this such a critical agenda item for the Democrats? Are they stupid and don't know the actual statistics?

That seams highly unlikely. Or are they smart, and figure that you and most Americans are completely oblivious to the statistics? And if that is the case, then why is this such a major issue? If they know the stats, and are pushing this hard despite the stats, what reason is there? Why so much effort, lies and sensationalism to get American's to give up a right that is the second amendment the Forefathers put in the US Constitution?

Meanwhile, what if they spend as much energy on real public health emergencies like Heart Disease, Cancer, Stroke, Diabetes, and all the other diseases that do far more damage and thousands upon thousands times the number of deaths. What if they were as aggressive with the Pharmaceutical industry, or the junk food industry, or the alcohol industry, or any other industries that directly and indirectly cause far more deaths, far more health issues, and far more costs. Heck, what if they forced the auto industry to build safer cars that would save a larger percentage of the 40,000 Americans who die in auto accidents each year (71X more than die from all rifles each year).

If you like emotion and especially the emotion of fear, then guns and assault rifles are the top problem in the United States. Ignore the facts. If you are 100% committed to a political dogma and don't care if it is based on truth or lies, don't care if it is actually good or not, and you are committed to hold to that dogma no matter what, then at least admit that. Certainly don't hold your politicians accountable to the truth or to actually doing something about causes of death such as Heart Disease and Cancer which account for over 1.2 million deaths a year. 1,250,000 vs. 14,000 vs. 560.

If you support gun control when all the other causes of death are being proportionally ignored, they you are being played by a government that does not care about you and is not working in your best interest. It's a shell game and you are oblivious and as long as you don't do anything about the game being played on you, they will definitely keep playing it.

Cure Cancer, Heart Disease, Diabetes, Stroke, Lower Respiratory Disease, Parkinson's, Kidney Disease, Liver Disease, Pneumonia, and a lot of other diseases. Make motor vehicles safer. Clean up the pharmaceutical industry.

Deal with mental health issues that are the actual cause of most violence (the gun doesn't kill people, the mentally ill person that has possession of that gun does). Reform the criminal justice system while still dealing strongly with crime. Then, when you've done all that at the very least, then come talk to me about the dangers of firearms. Before then it is just a smoke and mirrors plan to remove your rights.

(By the way, it is estimated that there are over 393 million civilian held firearms in the United States as of 2020, which is almost certainly lower than it really is. There are well over 100 million people in the United States that own a firearm. In 2020, over 5,000,000 Americans purchased a firearm (about 23,000,000 firearms sold in 2020), an estimated 40% (2,000,000) of which were first time buyers. So far in 2021, January 2 million firearms sold, February 1.5 million firearms sold, March 4 million firearms sold [which puts us over the 400 million mark]. Two thoughts. First, for the number of firearms owners and the number of firearms in the US, the number of deaths and homicides is comparatively very low. Second, how would you remove all those, and what percentage of well over 100 million people would even hand them over, or worse? For many people, removal of the second amendment is the same as removal of the entire constitution.)

A Typical LRC Idiot wrote:

CrispyChicken wrote:

Despite Biden's recent lie that "You weren't allowed to own a cannon during the Revolutionary War as an individual", private ownership of artillery was not unusual through at least the Civil War. Definitely owners of private merchant ships during the Revolutionary War and War of 1812 owned naval cannon and outfitted their ships with such artillery to protect them and to earn money through the use of their ships as legal privateers (not pirates). A large portion of the U.S. Naval strength during the Revolutionary War and War of 1812 was made up of private ships using privately owned artillery against the British. Many of these ships operated along the coast of Delaware and New Jersey and not too far from the present Biden Beach Compound. Too bad Biden is not too bright.

So do you support the private possession of artilleries? How about tanks or fighter planes? Would it be a good idea if Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates is allowed to possess nuclear missiles?

CrispyChicken wrote:

A Typical LRC Idiot wrote:

So do you support the private possession of artilleries? How about tanks or fighter planes? Would it be a good idea if Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates is allowed to possess nuclear missiles?

I believe "the right to bear arms" means the right to posses implements that a person is able to take in his or her own hands as a weapon. Possessing such an implement should not be a crime. Using it in a manner to unjustifiably harm another person or their property should be a crime. I would draw the line at artillery. However, I have built and fired a potato cannon and I know people who have built railguns, but in those cases size really does matter. What is a tank or a fighter plane? I have seen plenty of privately owned tanks and fighter planes, but really they are just machines because the weapons that they were originally equipped with have been removed or deactivated. But what is a fighter plane? The first fighter planes were aircraft piloted by a person with a pistol. So, its not very hard to turn an aircraft into a fighter plane, nor is it very hard to turn a bulldozer into a tank. Who's to say that Bezos and Gates don't possess nuclear missiles, or have the capacity to do so or control some?

ienjoyracing wrote:

The title seems to imply that this is *really about* totalitarianism and disarming the population in preparation for some huge government overreach. Others in the comments have also said it explicitly, many in fact. I’m a regular person, I don’t plan to work in the government or be an elected official. I have no plans to commit genocide and truly, genuinely want only the best for my country and our society. Along with this, I also believe that we should ban assault rifles and have background checks and extensive licensing and registration. I’m on the fence about banning every gun outright, but for all intents and purposes, I may as well support it. My own citizen brain, with no motives for genocide, has naturally and logically come to hold these beliefs just by thinking about it. I understand others may naturally and logically arrive at totally opposite conclusions about gun control. Just as I can concede that, I wish someone would also extend the concession that “lefties” and our democratic leaders and politicians are not bent on world domination or genocide, and are acting in their mind, in our best interest. Once we are on that level of understanding, we can have a discussion, until that happens, you can continue ranting about demonrats.

Uncle Samson wrote:

Whether you are for, against or not sure on guns, here are some stats (mostly from the CDC) that must be considered to ensure factual context in this debate. I think many people will be surprised by the actual numbers. In my opinion they raise some big questions about the role of the press, what is really going on and why.

Number of deaths for top 10 annual leading causes of death in the US (from the CDC website):

Heart disease: 659,041

Cancer: 599,601

Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040

Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979

Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005

Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499

Diabetes: 87,647

Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565

Influenza and pneumonia: 49,783

Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511

Do you notice what is not on that list?

All Firearms deaths total are at about 39,707 a year. That is for accidental death, suicide and murder. That is roughly the same as the number of deaths from motor vehicle accidents.

GGGG wrote:

Uncle Samson wrote:

Whether you are for, against or not sure on guns, here are some stats (mostly from the CDC) that must be considered to ensure factual context in this debate. I think many people will be surprised by the actual numbers. In my opinion they raise some big questions about the role of the press, what is really going on and why.

Number of deaths for top 10 annual leading causes of death in the US (from the CDC website):

Heart disease: 659,041

Cancer: 599,601

Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040

Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979

Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005

Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499

Diabetes: 87,647

Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565

Influenza and pneumonia: 49,783

Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511

Do you notice what is not on that list?

All Firearms deaths total are at about 39,707 a year. That is for accidental death, suicide and murder. That is roughly the same as the number of deaths from motor vehicle accidents.

Very few deaths caused by nuclear or chemical weapons on domestic soil either. Shall we say it's open season on those too?