So what would a typical week look like?
How would you build up to 60 miles a week if you are currently running 35-40 with a long run on Sunday around 13-14 miles?
So what would a typical week look like?
How would you build up to 60 miles a week if you are currently running 35-40 with a long run on Sunday around 13-14 miles?
who_let_the_dogs_out wrote:
Looking for a 5K training plan for a 30y+ distance guy to improve speed on approx. 60 miles per week.
I started to run late and jumped straight in longer distances like half and thon.
My best time is 75 mins for the half but now I'm in a bit worse shape now.
So far I looked at Daniels 2nd edition, but I'm not very inspired and I suppose people should have come up with smth newer from that time. I liked Pete Magill's take on the distance in solving-the-5k-puzzle, especially the hill work, but it seems that plan is badly lacking tempos in the base phase.
How would you train for the distance? Any 12-16 week plan you recommend and why? An outline of phases and progression of workouts through these phases will go long way.
I agree the "Solving the 5K Puzzle" was lacking in tempo work. The truth is that when you write articles on deadline and with a word count, you sometimes deliver a "good" piece that wasn't refined to be a "really good" one. In my VeloPress book, FAST 5K (2019), I fix this, and you'll find tempo a regular part of the schedule (merged with other parts that remain from the 5K Puzzle article). That said, there's nothing earth-shattering in the schedules. Basically, running is just about doing the max volume of training for all muscle fibers, energy systems, and nervous system-muscle synergies that you can recover from (and by "recover" I mean fully recover to the point where supercompensation--i.e., getting better--occurs). Different workouts are geared toward maxing out the training volume for all the physiological elements that go into running a fast 5K. And there's no one-size-fits-all. Some runners can train more. Some less. And we all bring our own unique training physiology to the table. Good luck!
Canefis wrote:
positive k wrote:
What simply works?:
1. Easy miles. Lots of them. But EASY. Do as many as you can. If 60mpw is your max, that’s ok. 90-100 would be better. But EASY. You should feel you are reigning yourself in intentionally on these. If you’re not fresh and springy by the end, you did it wrong. If it negatively impacts your run the next day, you did it wrong. If you can’t do some snappy strides at the end, you did it wrong. If you’re tired for your workout days, you did it wrong.
Note: this exaggerates a bit as some days you will feel like dogshyt no matter what, but the point is huge and most people mess it up.
2. Consistency. Say you have 180 days until target race. It’s much more important to run 175 of those days than to overdo it and miss weeks with injury. If you feel a bad twinge, stop the workout. Walk home if needed.
When I was young, I would try to finish everything, and at the desired paces. Injuries galore. Remember: the goal is to run tomorrow.
3. Threshold. And lots of it. Huge bang for the buck. Hard enough to get huge aerobic benefits, easy enough to not destroy yourself. Do 25-30 minutes of work, divided up in different units to prevent boredom. 5x 5 minutes. 10x3 minutes. 20x90s. I advise measuring by time instead of distance so you focus on proper effort. Keep the rests 30 to 90s max.
4. Speed. Touch it at least weekly. 100s, 150s, 200s. Short hills.
5. Race pace. 600s and 1000s. You only need to do these the last 4-6 weeks before the goal race.
That’s it. Simple, but not easy.
+1
What does a typical week look like then? How would one build from 35-40 miles a week to 60 miles a week with a Sunday long run of 13-15 miles?
schultzie20 wrote:
What does a typical week look like then? How would one build from 35-40 miles a week to 60 miles a week with a Sunday long run of 13-15 miles?
Just a random example, not necessarily one that would work for you:
MON - 1h easy - 8 miles
TUE - Lactate Threshold session - 8 miles
WED - 1h10 easy - 9 miles
THU - 1h easy - 8 miles
FRI - Faster session (hills, fartlek or track workout) - 8 miles
SAT - 1h easy - 8 miles
SUN - Long Run - 13 miles
Total - 62 miles
schultzie20 wrote:
So what would a typical week look like?
How would you build up to 60 miles a week if you are currently running 35-40 with a long run on Sunday around 13-14 miles?
As always it depends a bit on where you are coming from but a rough base is
20-30 min tempo run, do 4x200 at the end
90 min long run
Do 4x1 mile at 10k pace, again do 4x200
Do short hills (10s)one day before your easy run
Get as much mileage as possible.
Down at 40 mpw, miles tend to come from running more(i.e. 7 days a week) and slightly longer (45 mins instead of 50) for most people. Do the standard 2 weeks up(45, 50,40) until you adapt. At some point doing 2-4 30 min in the morning is an easy way to up the mileage.
The exactness of workouts doesn't really matter. Want to do 45 mins at MP? That's fine. Want to run 5x1 at 50min pace? Also works. Want to skip a tempo workout every couple of weeks and do 20x400@5k pace? You will be fine. And a lot depends on your recovery ability. At 20 I could do a tempo run and hill workout(12*60s) back to back, take an easy day and do another tempo run. Can't do that after 40?.
123 O. 4 wrote:
schultzie20 wrote:
What does a typical week look like then? How would one build from 35-40 miles a week to 60 miles a week with a Sunday long run of 13-15 miles?
Just a random example, not necessarily one that would work for you:
MON - 1h easy - 8 miles
TUE - Lactate Threshold session - 8 miles
WED - 1h10 easy - 9 miles
THU - 1h easy - 8 miles
FRI - Faster session (hills, fartlek or track workout) - 8 miles
SAT - 1h easy - 8 miles
SUN - Long Run - 13 miles
Total - 62 miles
This is great! Thanks!
ddidididid wrote:
schultzie20 wrote:
So what would a typical week look like?
How would you build up to 60 miles a week if you are currently running 35-40 with a long run on Sunday around 13-14 miles?
As always it depends a bit on where you are coming from but a rough base is
20-30 min tempo run, do 4x200 at the end
90 min long run
Do 4x1 mile at 10k pace, again do 4x200
Do short hills (10s)one day before your easy run
Get as much mileage as possible.
Down at 40 mpw, miles tend to come from running more(i.e. 7 days a week) and slightly longer (45 mins instead of 50) for most people. Do the standard 2 weeks up(45, 50,40) until you adapt. At some point doing 2-4 30 min in the morning is an easy way to up the mileage.
The exactness of workouts doesn't really matter. Want to do 45 mins at MP? That's fine. Want to run 5x1 at 50min pace? Also works. Want to skip a tempo workout every couple of weeks and do 20x400@5k pace? You will be fine. And a lot depends on your recovery ability. At 20 I could do a tempo run and hill workout(12*60s) back to back, take an easy day and do another tempo run. Can't do that after 40?.
Thanks. I like the fact that you pointed out how I can change up the workouts to keep things interesting.
First I just want to say how awesome it is SoCal Pete responded regarding his own awesome 5K Puzzle article. And great commentary on working all muscles and energy systems in a way that works for you personally.
schultzie20 wrote:
So what would a typical week look like?
How would you build up to 60 miles a week if you are currently running 35-40 with a long run on Sunday around 13-14 miles?
schultzie, you got some good responses on what a typical, 60 mile week might look like with the kind of workouts that have been mentioned. For many runners those weeks could be repeated for months and months and they would see progress.
I just want to throw one other thing out there. You say you're building mileage, and we don't know how old you are or what your training history is like, but don't feel that you need to fit all of that into every single week. Going up in mileage can be hard. If you did a tempo on Tuesday and it's Thursday and you're "supposed" to do a fartlek or some faster stuff but you're feeling tired and beat up, move that workout off to another day.
A lot of people can do hard, easy, easy, hard, easy, long run, easy, repeat. But if you are building miles and/or are an older runner, don't be afraid to hit your hard, quality session and then do however many easy days it takes until you're ready for the next one. I do this all the time. Sometimes it's two easy days and I'm ready to go, other times it might be five days of just easy jogging before I'm ready. This could be due to the training, or life stuff, work stuff, lack of sleep, the weather (heat can really take it out of me), etc. Just listen to the body and run faster again when you're ready. The difference between 4 tempos in a month and 3 tempos in a month really isn't that great.
SoCal Pete wrote:
who_let_the_dogs_out wrote:
Looking for a 5K training plan for a 30y+ distance guy to improve speed on approx. 60 miles per week.
I started to run late and jumped straight in longer distances like half and thon.
My best time is 75 mins for the half but now I'm in a bit worse shape now.
So far I looked at Daniels 2nd edition, but I'm not very inspired and I suppose people should have come up with smth newer from that time. I liked Pete Magill's take on the distance in solving-the-5k-puzzle, especially the hill work, but it seems that plan is badly lacking tempos in the base phase.
How would you train for the distance? Any 12-16 week plan you recommend and why? An outline of phases and progression of workouts through these phases will go long way.
I agree the "Solving the 5K Puzzle" was lacking in tempo work. The truth is that when you write articles on deadline and with a word count, you sometimes deliver a "good" piece that wasn't refined to be a "really good" one. In my VeloPress book, FAST 5K (2019), I fix this, and you'll find tempo a regular part of the schedule (merged with other parts that remain from the 5K Puzzle article). That said, there's nothing earth-shattering in the schedules. Basically, running is just about doing the max volume of training for all muscle fibers, energy systems, and nervous system-muscle synergies that you can recover from (and by "recover" I mean fully recover to the point where supercompensation--i.e., getting better--occurs). Different workouts are geared toward maxing out the training volume for all the physiological elements that go into running a fast 5K. And there's no one-size-fits-all. Some runners can train more. Some less. And we all bring our own unique training physiology to the table. Good luck!
Pete, what an honor to see you here! I wish you all the best in your pursuit of a new record!
I do agree that consistency and mileage are the main markers of performance, but if we assume that both athletes run with the same frequency and same dedication I guess there must be a difference in how the running plan is structured.
E.g. Daniels 5k-10k plan:
phase 2: Long run (w/ every third being moderate hard) + reps (200-400 w/ plenty rec) + tempo
phase 3: Long run + intervals/fartlek (1000 - 1200m) + tempo
In the first block there is an accent on the speed, whereas in the second block the accent is on specific work.
schultzie20 wrote:
123 O. 4 wrote:
Just a random example, not necessarily one that would work for you:
MON - 1h easy - 8 miles
TUE - Lactate Threshold session - 8 miles
WED - 1h10 easy - 9 miles
THU - 1h easy - 8 miles
FRI - Faster session (hills, fartlek or track workout) - 8 miles
SAT - 1h easy - 8 miles
SUN - Long Run - 13 miles
Total - 62 miles
This is great! Thanks!
You're welcome.
keepgoing wrote:
First I just want to say how awesome it is SoCal Pete responded regarding his own awesome 5K Puzzle article. And great commentary on working all muscles and energy systems in a way that works for you personally.
schultzie20 wrote:
So what would a typical week look like?
How would you build up to 60 miles a week if you are currently running 35-40 with a long run on Sunday around 13-14 miles?
schultzie, you got some good responses on what a typical, 60 mile week might look like with the kind of workouts that have been mentioned. For many runners those weeks could be repeated for months and months and they would see progress.
I just want to throw one other thing out there. You say you're building mileage, and we don't know how old you are or what your training history is like, but don't feel that you need to fit all of that into every single week. Going up in mileage can be hard. If you did a tempo on Tuesday and it's Thursday and you're "supposed" to do a fartlek or some faster stuff but you're feeling tired and beat up, move that workout off to another day.
A lot of people can do hard, easy, easy, hard, easy, long run, easy, repeat. But if you are building miles and/or are an older runner, don't be afraid to hit your hard, quality session and then do however many easy days it takes until you're ready for the next one. I do this all the time. Sometimes it's two easy days and I'm ready to go, other times it might be five days of just easy jogging before I'm ready. This could be due to the training, or life stuff, work stuff, lack of sleep, the weather (heat can really take it out of me), etc. Just listen to the body and run faster again when you're ready. The difference between 4 tempos in a month and 3 tempos in a month really isn't that great.
+1
keepgoing wrote:
First I just want to say how awesome it is SoCal Pete responded regarding his own awesome 5K Puzzle article. And great commentary on working all muscles and energy systems in a way that works for you personally.
schultzie20 wrote:
So what would a typical week look like?
How would you build up to 60 miles a week if you are currently running 35-40 with a long run on Sunday around 13-14 miles?
schultzie, you got some good responses on what a typical, 60 mile week might look like with the kind of workouts that have been mentioned. For many runners those weeks could be repeated for months and months and they would see progress.
I just want to throw one other thing out there. You say you're building mileage, and we don't know how old you are or what your training history is like, but don't feel that you need to fit all of that into every single week. Going up in mileage can be hard. If you did a tempo on Tuesday and it's Thursday and you're "supposed" to do a fartlek or some faster stuff but you're feeling tired and beat up, move that workout off to another day.
A lot of people can do hard, easy, easy, hard, easy, long run, easy, repeat. But if you are building miles and/or are an older runner, don't be afraid to hit your hard, quality session and then do however many easy days it takes until you're ready for the next one. I do this all the time. Sometimes it's two easy days and I'm ready to go, other times it might be five days of just easy jogging before I'm ready. This could be due to the training, or life stuff, work stuff, lack of sleep, the weather (heat can really take it out of me), etc. Just listen to the body and run faster again when you're ready. The difference between 4 tempos in a month and 3 tempos in a month really isn't that great.
My running background. I ran my first Marathon in 2017 in 3:30 in the DMZ with 2 weeks of training. I signed up for the race after touring the DMZ as I was working on my master's thesis in South Korea at the time. In 2018, I ran a 2:45 marathon at CIM doing nothing but easy runs on trails in and around Auburn, California. I was stoked to hit 3 weeks of 100 miles.
Then I moved to Washington and tried the same thing and blew up big time at Boston in 2019. After that, I returned exclusively to the trails (ran a 100k, couple 50ks) and now I want to make a return to the road to see how fast I can go. Specifically, I want to break 18 in the 5k (never ran one before outside of a cross course in Cali) sub 60 for 10 miles and sub 1:20 in the half. Plus with coivd pretty much shutting down all races, I figure I can time-trial all these distances on the local bike/walking path a few miles from my house.
Currently, I am getting 35-40 easy miles a week, 2 weeks ago I ran an all out 5k and did it in 18:11 so I figure that by ramping up to 65-70 over the spring, summer, fall will get me crazy fit! After reading this thread I ordered Dainels book to gain a better understanding of training besides the proven mantra, "more miles, more better."
Both posters who provided the weekly breakdowns are awesome and the only follow up question I have is would I lose anything by keeping all my Sunday long runs on the trails? Many people talk about doing cut down runs or some kind of "workout" during the long run on Sunday..
SoCal Pete wrote:
who_let_the_dogs_out wrote:
Looking for a 5K training plan for a 30y+ distance guy to improve speed on approx. 60 miles per week.
I started to run late and jumped straight in longer distances like half and thon.
My best time is 75 mins for the half but now I'm in a bit worse shape now.
So far I looked at Daniels 2nd edition, but I'm not very inspired and I suppose people should have come up with smth newer from that time. I liked Pete Magill's take on the distance in solving-the-5k-puzzle, especially the hill work, but it seems that plan is badly lacking tempos in the base phase.
How would you train for the distance? Any 12-16 week plan you recommend and why? An outline of phases and progression of workouts through these phases will go long way.
I agree the "Solving the 5K Puzzle" was lacking in tempo work. The truth is that when you write articles on deadline and with a word count, you sometimes deliver a "good" piece that wasn't refined to be a "really good" one. In my VeloPress book, FAST 5K (2019), I fix this, and you'll find tempo a regular part of the schedule (merged with other parts that remain from the 5K Puzzle article). That said, there's nothing earth-shattering in the schedules. Basically, running is just about doing the max volume of training for all muscle fibers, energy systems, and nervous system-muscle synergies that you can recover from (and by "recover" I mean fully recover to the point where supercompensation--i.e., getting better--occurs). Different workouts are geared toward maxing out the training volume for all the physiological elements that go into running a fast 5K. And there's no one-size-fits-all. Some runners can train more. Some less. And we all bring our own unique training physiology to the table. Good luck!
The new deal differs from what you are saying here. It's not about "doing the max volume of training for all muscle fibers,energy systems,and nervous system muscle synergies that you can recover from. Now pay attention! It's just about doing ENOUGH what it takes when it comes to volume and quality to the point where supercompensation--i.e,getting better--occurs.You should never look for max volume ! If you do that the risk of injury and/or overdoing increases.
Actually there`s "one-size-fits-all" if one by that more refers to the content leading to optimal results and the three main factors that contributes to this.
123 O. 4 wrote:
schultzie20 wrote:
What does a typical week look like then? How would one build from 35-40 miles a week to 60 miles a week with a Sunday long run of 13-15 miles?
Just a random example, not necessarily one that would work for you:
MON - 1h easy - 8 miles
TUE - Lactate Threshold session - 8 miles
WED - 1h10 easy - 9 miles
THU - 1h easy - 8 miles
FRI - Faster session (hills, fartlek or track workout) - 8 miles
SAT - 1h easy - 8 miles
SUN - Long Run - 13 miles
Total - 62 miles
Wouldn't 8 miles at LT (or one-hour race pace) pace be a bit too hard?
I think it means 8 miles total, e.g. 2 miles warmup, 4 miles tempo or (4 x mile), 2 miles cooldown
ltsession wrote:
I think it means 8 miles total, e.g. 2 miles warmup, 4 miles tempo or (4 x mile), 2 miles cooldown
My bad. Now it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the correction!
schultzie20 wrote:
Currently, I am getting 35-40 easy miles a week, 2 weeks ago I ran an all out 5k and did it in 18:11 .
I find it amusing that you managed a 2:45 marathon, but still in the 18 min range for 5K.
jsdnfjk wrote:
I swear science is ruining this sport. It's supposed to be a lifestyle, a journey, self-discovery, a self-inflicted suffering. You suffer everyday for the feeling you get afterward. Run fast on the days you feel good, embrace the suck on the days you don't.
"Workouts" are just things we do to make ourselves feel good, to write in our logs to admire. The truth is, if you lived in a log cabin in the woods for a year and just ran how long and how fast you felt like everyday, listened to your body and let that determine your training, you'd PR in everything from the mile to the marathon, yes. Your running log might be boring to look at but you'd be fit.....
That's it.
The sciencefication of things is done so that all these "coaches" have a job and they can explain you overly complicated things related to running.
At the end it's just running.