R2R2R Question

I did a R2R2R two Octobers ago and did an attempt with my father probably 5 years ago. Have you been to the Grand Canyon before? Sounds like it might be your first time. Also what is your fitness level? This is a seriously big run. People who think they are badass or some super fitness monsters have been greatly humbled by the Grand Canyon. Watch some Youtube videos of the "average person" trying to complete this and see the look on their face as the try to climb up the south rim.

Since this is fast approaching I hope you have planned out every little detail. What are you carrying? What food, and nutrition are you bringing? What is your water and hydration plan? What are you wearing? What is the weather going to be like? What time are you starting? Bring illumination! Are you bringing trekking poles? I would recommend them. It is so important to have this all planned to a T.

I also went solo and started at 3:00 am from the South Kaibab Trail and ended there probably around 5:30-6 PM. I had to park about 1.5 miles down the road at a dirt parking lot off Yaki Point rd or E Rim Drive, not sure which, but it added more distance to the run. It was a long day. In hindsight I would have much rather hiked down to the ranch and spent the day there and hiked out the next day. North Rim isnt all that great in my opinion.

My Garmin says it was 24.95 to the North Rim and it took me about 6hours:24mins. If you are not use to night running this can be hugely intimidating especially by yourself. Not a place to trip, twist an ankle get dehydrated or bonk. Check how much it cost to be medevacked out of the GC.

Anyway this is already pretty long and I never post here but felt compelled to help. Not sure if I did. Feel free to ask more questions. Just don't want anyone getting in over their head because they heard of this cool R2R2R stunt. Who knows maybe you are a young guy who is super fit and this will be no problem for you.

I'm sure you researched all this, but just to be safe, I'm going to spew it anyway.

It can be and often is MUCH hotter down in the canyon. You should really investigate the weather both on top AND at the bottom before attempting this.

It IS possible to get lost, and as you likely know, some very fit runners have died running on trails there after getting lost.

Bright Angel trail is beautiful, but there will be mule poop, so look for that...you don't want to slip in some and head over a cliff.

The Grand Canyon averages 12 deaths a year. Not all due to falls or exposure, but some of them are. Best to go with another person if possible, OR at least let someone know where you plan to be at different times.

SK is shorter and steeper but zero water until you get to the river. BA is therefore longer but has several water spots along the way. For this reason most people typically go down SK and ascend BA on the way back. In non Covid years there is a cab service that will take you to the SK trailhead although I have no clue if it's currently running.

Have you checked weather on the N Rim? This time of the year water is typically shut off and it can be pretty icy headed up, not to mention very cold. In all the times I've run it I've stuck to Octoberish and Aprilish, although I've run multiple Rim to River and back up during winter months. If it's icy up top of the South Rim it's going to get sloppy muddy real quick with clay that just sticks like crazy. Flagstaff is supposed to get snow and a cold front Saturday night/Sunday.

I did R2R2R a few years ago in Oct as well. We started and finished at Bright Angel.

The biggest advantage for Bright Angel was not having to worry about the pack mules going down, if I remember correctly. (these are not the passenger ones, but the supply ones for phantom ranch). I am unfortunately not able to find the information, but I think a mule train starts down South Kaibab at like 4 or 5 am.

Definitely be ready for the heat! I had to recover for a bit at Phantom Ranch before my final climb. It was certainly the hardest run I have ever done.

If it's your first visit to the Grand Canyon you might want to start with a South Kaibab - River and back first.

The Bright Angel trail is a lot longer so probably not a good idea if you don't know what you are doing.

Also not sure when the water gets turned on again. Make sure you know where to get water.

R2R2R is a serious undertaking and should only be done by experienced ultrarunners with mountain and high altitude experience.

Do Bright Angel outbound and inbound. It may be longer but the trail is less steep and you won’t have to walk back to your car in the dark if you are planning on being out there that long.

I’ve done the double crossing a couple times and it’ll be extra challenging this time of year because there will probably be snow the last few miles to the north kaibab trailhead.

I also wouldn’t count on water other than at phantom ranch because the pipes have a tendency to freeze.

Fell free to reach out if you want some more advise.

Just curious, how fast are you planning on doing it?

South rim shuttles may be running. Check website for times. Also check website for which water sources are turned on. Bring traction for this time of year. Only take South Kaibab out understanding that there is no water for 7 miles and pretty much everybody bonks on the climb out. Good luck!

This is all extremely helpful, thank you! I have been to the canyon before and went to the river and back. Obviously, a much smaller order than R2R2R. I also am not under any illusions about potential dangers and feel confident to listen to myself and turn back at any point if it's not my day mentally or physically. In re: to training, I've been training for this for some time and have completed an 8 hour effot with ~9K ft. gain/descent. That practice bout really helped me hone in the hydration/nutrition/etc. Plan is to start out at 4 AM. I will check with the rangers tomorrow to see if they can provide updated information about which water spots are running and will get some more beta about the trail quality at the NR. I am leaning towards SK out and BA back as it seems there are some currently running water spots on BA. Some recommended checking with the FB group to pay someone from the visitors center to SK, but we will see given the time I want to start. I would like to beat the mule trains down so starting before dawn is imperative.

Any other guidance would be greatly appreciated. I will let everyone knows how it goes.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

I'll agree with most of this, however, I will disagree about the north rim- it's magnificent and the Grand Canyon Lodge is a great place to hangout and enjoy the views without all the crowds of the south rim.

good luck out there!

You are probably 100% correct! The whole park is really amazing. My point should have been that the North Kaibab trail isn't as scenic as BA or SK. When I got to the top of the North Rim its just a parking lot with no views. Just ate my lunch with some crows. Think the only great view I really felt was the Coconino Overlook, but on the South Rim trails everything is a pretty amazing view. Not much time to explore the North Rim on a R2R2R trip. I actually wanted to go to the Lodge area to get a "passport stamp" but would have added on another 4 miles round trip to a very long day. I've never made it to the North Lodge but one of my favorite things about National Parks is having a nice meal after a day on the trails inside the park. From pics I've seen it looks like a pretty nice view from there!

OP- Please use this thread to talk out your game plan. I would literally be writing down everything I'm bringing, writing down your water stops, etc etc. I think it would go a long way in making you feel more prepared.

Most noobs take SK down because you can get a shuttle to it and come (more like death march) up Bright Angel where you can get water in a few places. You see more of the canyon this way (assuming you're not doing BA in the dark) than just doing the Kaibabs like the pro.

'Death March's up BA is right! I did this many years ago with a group. And like idiots we went in July, hell must be like that. Went down SK and came back up BA. I was perfectly fine, if a little tired, but there were some people in the group that were literally laying face first in the trail, didn't care they were so out of it. We had to babysit them up BA but they all made it.

Labor day, maybe 3 years ago. Ran down and up SK.

Took shuttle to SK at 9am, from a large parking lot near some tourist stores.

SK down is fast, took a bit over an hour. It's like running down stairs. Or more like jumping down into the canyon. I wouldn't personally run down SK in the dark, if your trying to be fast.

If you want to run up, SK is not the way to do it unless you're fit. It's like running steep rutted stairs on the way up. Never done BA, seems smooth from the youtube stuff I've watched.

Was able to get taxi from SK @2am finish time, no problemo.

If I had to run it again, SK down, BA up. Start before the mules.

General plan:

4AM start: Park along service road near SK (checked it out yesterday and mid-day there were plenty of spots on the side). Start descent down SK before mule train. Have Petzl headlamp. Trail conditions at top of South Rim were excellent - no snow or ice.

Hydration: 2L CB and 18 oz. handheld with Maurten 160. Additionally, will be carrying Nuun tablets. Refill at Phantom Ranch (confirmed open by ranger), filter water @ Bright Angel creek on way out and way back. Refill again at PR prior to ascent up BA. If necessary, Indian Garden also has available water stop on way back to South Rim which was also confirmed to be on.

Food: Planning to have sufficient calories for 14 hours out on trail, although I think that's longer than I will be out. However, I don't want to risk not bringing sufficient fuel. Maurten gels + Cliff Bloks, Bagel w/ PBJ, Crushed potato chips, and trail mix. Total calories between liquid/solids: 5250ish.

Weather: South Rim at start is 15*, PR is 60-65* when I will be going through, North Rim is 25-30* on my ascent. South Rim at end is 45-50*. Prepared with necessary gear for each of the conditions.

Again, I appreciate the feedback and if there is any other advice please send my way.

You've got nice weather for the run right now. I did it on January 1 2020 and it was about -9F at the south rim when I started down South Kaibab. Took me just under 12 hours. Came back up Bright Angel. Sounds to me like you've got it well planned. I brought a mylar emergency bag just in case some catastrophe forced me to stay overnight. They weigh nothing and might save your life. I also brought crampons because the upper reaches of the trails were VERY icy. I saw idiots slipping and sliding all over the place. Not my idea of fun on the edge of a cliff.

Enjoy the run.

Years back, I did South Kaibab - down and back on March 1st with a good foot of snow in the campground. But trail was fine just some icy spots in the first switchbacks.

did R2R2R on halloween (2020) and did south kaibab out and back in about just under 13+ hours. parked at the visitor center and took the first shuttle to the start. temps were ideal - 40s at the rims and 70s in the canyon on the way back.

as you mentioned, bright angel is slightly less of a grade than heading up south kaibab, but it also adds 2-3 miles to the run total. the traverse is difficult enough that you don't want any extra mileage, and that includes any hiking before starting your run.

at present, indian garden i believe is the only open water source on bright angel, approximately halfway up. for me, that isn't enough of an incentive to choose BA over SK - after refilling at phantom ranch, i didn't need any additional water the rest of the way.

also, make sure you leave enough of a time buffer to hit phantom ranch during its open hours, otherwise that will be a big blow. on paper, everything seems do-able until you make that trek up north rim - that's when stuff gets real.

GC Noob wrote:

Making a go at this run this coming week and trying to finalize my trail decision. Can someone explain the pros and cons of Bright Angel versus South Kaibab as a starting/ending point? I understand Bright Angel is right near the GC parking lot and therefore great from a transportation (albeit longer than SK). I will be going alone, so I am trying to figure out if it's worth it to park at visitors center and walk the 2.8 miles to the SK trailhead then make my way across. Alternatively, I could start at Bright Angel and cut out the walking distance to SK but have that distance "tacked on" during the run itself. I won't be able to get a ride from the visitors center to SK.

Any input would be greatly helpful!

I have done R2R2R three times, the first two time in the 1990s solo and the last time 4 years ago with my son. I assume you have checked the forecast as it's the middle of winter and the N Rim is 8,300 feet.

All three times I started and ended at Bright Angel because I had accommodation there and because of water on Bright Angel (the last time was in June and 115 highs at Phantom). My first time was mid-October with 5 inches of fresh snow on the S Rim - they were advising crampons. Slippery conditions the first 2 miles then clear trails. The last 2 miles at the N Rim were a mixture of snow, slush and mud. It was tough going.

Regarding the route, if you have to get back from South Kaibab to the VC on your own it seems like it's pretty much a wash as just taking Bright Angel both ways. You should not count on any water being available this time of the year, which makes for more of a challenge. It's a long tough day, but definitely worth it. It's one of my favorite trail runs in the world. And the section along the creek from the Phantom to Cottonwood campground is sweet because it's mostly flat and you will be able to just cruise. When I was there the last time I was happy to see they had built a bridge over the swamp section where I had fallen many years ago trying jump from rock to rock.