It's obviously the shoes.

pee backs wrote:

I do think it's a shame but not arguing for any remedy apart from taking post-2020 times with a grain of salt.

Given we are already taking post ~1992 times with a grain of salt, whats the difference? Compared to that EPO era where we went from 13:10 being a a fast 5k to 12:50 in like 2 years, we haven't seen anything yet. The good news is that I expect everyone to chose to wear the shoes and we will not have any debate about what they are on. We will look at the feet and know.

pee backs wrote:

A couple of white-guy collegiates ran close to two seconds faster for a mile than King Ches -- in the same race

What??? You really tarnished your thread with this. You do understand that earlier in your post you were alluding to the greatness of Jim Ryun and Alan Webb and now you are implicitly questioning whether white guys can run fast. Please do better.

Moron#5 wrote:

pee backs wrote:

A couple of white-guy collegiates ran close to two seconds faster for a mile than King Ches -- in the same race

What??? You really tarnished your thread with this. You do understand that earlier in your post you were alluding to the greatness of Jim Ryun and Alan Webb and now you are implicitly questioning whether white guys can run fast. Please do better.

You've missed the point of theses examples -- the Kessler-Ryun-Webb comparison demonstrates how the shoes brought a talented but less-trained runner up to the level of two talented and well-trained runners; the Teare-Hocker-Ches example demonstrates how the shoes brought two well-trained but physiologically disadvantaged runners up to the level of a well-trained and physiologically advantaged runner.

pee backs wrote:

Moron#5 wrote:

What??? You really tarnished your thread with this. You do understand that earlier in your post you were alluding to the greatness of Jim Ryun and Alan Webb and now you are implicitly questioning whether white guys can run fast. Please do better.

You've missed the point of theses examples -- the Kessler-Ryun-Webb comparison demonstrates how the shoes brought a talented but less-trained runner up to the level of two talented and well-trained runners; the Teare-Hocker-Ches example demonstrates how the shoes brought two well-trained but physiologically disadvantaged runners up to the level of a well-trained and physiologically advantaged runner.

No I got the point. You are correct that the shoes are an advantage BUT you are saying that whites are at a physiological disadvantage. Then maybe we need to have separate categories like we do for gender if the disadvantage is so obvious.

Oof, definitely would make that jump! But you can't ignore underlying physiological differences. I would argue that King Ches' physique is suited to more efficient running mechanics than Teare or Hocker's and that, more often than not, East Africans have more favorable limb and muscle proportions, benefit from growing up at altitude, etc. So when I see these guys less impressive pedigrees and somewhat more unwieldy frames make a sudden jump to running so much faster under essentially the same training protocols, I have to think -- it's the shoes!

Yikes, *wouldn't make that jump!

Op

The 1500 woman’s time was set in adidas spikes that have been around for a couple years

The 1:44 Donovan brazier just ran was in some random Nike sprinting spikes that have also been around for a while

Bryce Hoppels time in the 1000 was set in standard adidas spikes that have been around since 2018

Your logic is flawed, Kessler Hobbs was training with an Olympian and his jump is reasonable as well.

pee backs wrote:

Oof, definitely would make that jump! But you can't ignore underlying physiological differences. I would argue that King Ches' physique is suited to more efficient running mechanics than Teare or Hocker's and that, more often than not, East Africans have more favorable limb and muscle proportions, benefit from growing up at altitude, etc. So when I see these guys less impressive pedigrees and somewhat more unwieldy frames make a sudden jump to running so much faster under essentially the same training protocols, I have to think -- it's the shoes!

Eh, Ches's mile record was really poorly paced - his 400 splits were 55/59/60/58. He probably would have ran 3:50 or faster if he tried to run even like 56-high/58/58/57

Paradoxical wrote:

pee backs wrote:

Oof, definitely would make that jump! But you can't ignore underlying physiological differences. I would argue that King Ches' physique is suited to more efficient running mechanics than Teare or Hocker's and that, more often than not, East Africans have more favorable limb and muscle proportions, benefit from growing up at altitude, etc. So when I see these guys less impressive pedigrees and somewhat more unwieldy frames make a sudden jump to running so much faster under essentially the same training protocols, I have to think -- it's the shoes!

Eh, Ches's mile record was really poorly paced - his 400 splits were 55/59/60/58. He probably would have ran 3:50 or faster if he tried to run even like 56-high/58/58/57

I meant to add that Teare's record was pretty much even-paced throughout, they started off slow with a 30 second first 209 then ran straight 28-highs and 29-lows for the rest of the race.

The new spikes are Nike spikes, I'm not aware of any of the other companies taking the foam from the road racing shoes (it isn't the carbon fiber plate that possibly makes shoes faster, it's the foam that is used). Yet Hoppel is still seemingly a twitch behind Brazier who is wearing the new spikes. Perrier smashed the 2 mile record in New Balance shoes, and Coburn also beat the old record in new balance, why didn't other people in the race run faster with Nikes?. What shoes was O. Hoare wearing in his 1500, were they On spikes? Some of the guys in that 3k with all the sub 7:30's were adidas people.

Not everyone is smashing their PR's right now, the ones who are didn't get a chance to race last spring/summer, apparently they made big gains back then and have now made more gains. Take someone who has been progressing each of the past five years, now take out their second or third year. Their improvement from year 1 to year 3 would look enormous, that's what we're seeing now. We're a missing a year of racing from people's progression, making it look like they made a sudden jump. But really it's a jump over two full years of training.

If Drew Hunter didn't race his junior year, (like Hobbs Kessler) and he suddenly ran 3:57 indoors his senior year like he did and you only could look at his sophomore track times for his past results, what would you be saying about him?

Brazier was not wearing any of the new so called “super spikes” with ZoomX foam. Interestingly, he was wearing the Nike Superfly Elite 2, a sprint spike listed for 100m to 400m. I wonder what made him choose this spike over the Air Zoom Victory or even the Victory Elite 2 that he wore in early 2020.