No offense, but your basic position here is "I'm already just making $100,000 and if I have to double what I pay my workers I'll make less." The current federal minimum wage will give a full time worker less than $16,000 a year. Doubling it then would yield an annual income of a bit over $30,000. Can you see why a lot of people wouldn't feel too bad for you if your income dropped to something like $70-$80k?
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
MatthewXCountry wrote:
On average inflation adjusted minimum wage, in the USA, has been declining.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Timeline_of_federal_minimum_hourly_wage_for_nonfarm_workers_for_the_United_States._And_inflation-adjusted.gif1. Federal inimum wage should be tied to inflation - I think $10/hr in today's terms is reasonable, and it should automatically increase with inflation so that acts of Congress aren't required to change it.
2. Minimum wage for part-time work should be higher (say $15/hr). If you want to pay low wages you need to guarantee work and pay benefits.
3. Full time work should be 35 - 37.5 hours/wk, rather than 40, gives more employees a chance to work. Employers are free to pay overtime to their most talented employees if they want them to work more.
Great our armchair economist thinks $10/hr sounds good lock her in boys. 35 hrs a week so more people can work, makes sense. We can't let the invisible hand work and people place themselves as businesses need so everyone is productive and working as much as possible. What's scary is this is how the politicians work. The public likes a $15/hr minimum wage lets do that. They have no clue what this means to the economy or what the real impacts will be on people. When they get the hell out of the way the economy manages to regulate itself but when they try to central plan that's where you get nonsense ideas like there is not enough work for everyone or we need a universal income.
We've seen the "Invisible Hand" regulate itself and we had 12 year olds working factory shifts and rivers that were so polluted they caught fire. No thanks.
All you inviable hand 'the market solves all' capitalists forget how much life improved thanks to all the things you rail against.
We've also heard how $15 min wage would be devasting....then Seattle implements it and everything is just fine.
We've heard the BS theory while we've seen all the newly generated wealth go to the corporations and the average worker not gain hardly anything even as the economy gains by leaps and bounds.
Capitalist theory works.......for the capitalists. How about balancing it out with some things that make sense for the rest of us.
small business owner wrote:
I apologize if this has already been included in the conversation, but people shouldn't be supporting themselves and a family on a "minimum wage job". Many minimum wage jobs should be entry level jobs that kids get in high school and before establishing themselves financially. If the government raises the minimum wage on these low skilled jobs to $15 an hour, if a business doesn't either reduce their workforce or go out of business, then people who are on the fence about working (either extra hours as a second job or a spouse with a well-paid partner) will move in and take jobs that uneducated and/or unskilled people need to enter the workforce. As a business owner, would you rather have a 21 year old person who has never had a job or a 30 year old person who went to college and doesn't need to have a high pressure 9-5 job but is bored at home and wants to do something productive? I'll take the 30 year old. There will never be a perfect solution to getting this right for all people and all scenarios, so the most "American" thing to do is get out of the way and let the free market and supply and demand guide wages. If you can't get by on less than $10 per hour, then do the best you can while learning the skills to get a job that pays a higher wage.
So........all the jobloss you fret about from a higher min wage would only be from highschoolers?
I love you telling the market who 'should' be working these min wage jobs lol........I thought the invisible hand was supposed to sort this all out....... there's no 'should' in a free market
people shouldn't be supporting themselves and a family on a "minimum wage job". Many minimum wage jobs should be entry level jobs that kids get in high school and before establishing themselves financially.
So all those people trying to support themselves or a family on min wage because it's all they could get.....should they quit those jobs?
principles of economics wrote:
. . .
Go ahead and close. Welcome to business life-cycles.
It is not the role of government, nor of the employees, to keep employee compensation in line with employer's objectives. . .
Indeed! Couldn't agree more. It is not the role of government to manage (private sector) employee compensation in any way.
If the government, acting as proxy for "society", thinks that everyone should be paid some minimum level then it should be up to the government to pay everyone that minimum level. There are many ways to do this, including a minimum guaranteed income or, tying it to work, earned income credits. Any of these are preferable to a minimum wage which warps the marketplace to the detriment of all.
small business owner wrote:
x days without injury wrote:
You can increase the minimum wage without a 1:1 increase in product prices. You just have to reduce executive compensation.
Let me try one more time....as you can see I don't post here very often:
This is one of the most ridiculous and emotional replies on this thread. Everyone who thinks like this is imagining that every business is Amazon or some other huge public company. The vast majority of companies in America are small businesses run by people passionate about what they do who just want to make a decent living. I have a business that does over $4 million in sales each year but my take home is around $100K......certainly nice but not fly around the world or buy a second/vacation home nice. ....as a matter of fact this is below the average household income where I live. I pay people $11/hr....if the minimum wage goes to $15/hr then my income goes down. If I can't afford to pay my mortgage and save for my kids education and live the lifestyle I am used to on this salary, then I will close my business and get a traditional 9-5 and my 40+ employees will need to get new jobs. Remember that this overarching minimum wage people wish for.....often out of anger at hearing about huge CEO compensation.....will mostly affect small businesses with owners that make less than the typical person working a traditional job.
why wouldn't you raise prices a tiny bit? maybe prices increase a faction, your income goes down fraction and you make $95,000.
Not a disaster.
Why not pay $9 and make 130,000? or $7 and make $160,000? You are already being robbed! It's just not right!
To put this subject in context:
The current federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.
The discussion is not for it to be $15.00 but to be higher than $7.25.
That’s how I read the thread title and original post, anyway.
Minimum wage (and welfare for that matter) are not for the poor... it is for the rich. It is a way to give the poor just the minimum to survive which in turn protects the wealth of those who have it. A starving society is not good business.
principles of economics wrote:
small business owner wrote:
, then I will close my business and get a traditional 9-5 and my 40+ employees will need to get new jobs.
Remember that this overarching minimum wage people wish for.....often out of anger at hearing about huge CEO compensation.....will mostly affect small businesses with owners that make less than the typical person working a traditional job.
Go ahead and close. Welcome to business life-cycles.
If he closes. then they all makes $0. Further proof that minimum wage advocates are not just uninformed but malevolent.
can I get change? wrote:
We've seen the "Invisible Hand" regulate itself and we had 12 year olds working factory shifts and rivers that were so polluted they caught fire. No thanks.
All you inviable hand 'the market solves all' capitalists forget how much life improved thanks to all the things you rail against.
We've also heard how $15 min wage would be devasting....then Seattle implements it and everything is just fine.
We've heard the BS theory while we've seen all the newly generated wealth go to the corporations and the average worker not gain hardly anything even as the economy gains by leaps and bounds.
Capitalist theory works.......for the capitalists. How about balancing it out with some things that make sense for the rest of us.
Life improved thanks to technological progress enabled by capitalism. Labor laws have only inhibited this process. It's not like poor African countries where kids work on the farm can legislate themselves into prosperity by enacting some "child labor laws."
Limousine Libertarian wrote:
can I get change? wrote:
We've seen the "Invisible Hand" regulate itself and we had 12 year olds working factory shifts and rivers that were so polluted they caught fire. No thanks.
All you inviable hand 'the market solves all' capitalists forget how much life improved thanks to all the things you rail against.
We've also heard how $15 min wage would be devasting....then Seattle implements it and everything is just fine.
We've heard the BS theory while we've seen all the newly generated wealth go to the corporations and the average worker not gain hardly anything even as the economy gains by leaps and bounds.
Capitalist theory works.......for the capitalists. How about balancing it out with some things that make sense for the rest of us.
Life improved thanks to technological progress enabled by capitalism. Labor laws have only inhibited this process. It's not like poor African countries where kids work on the farm can legislate themselves into prosperity by enacting some "child labor laws."
By the way, $15 minimum wage in places like Seattle and San Francisco has only further increased the cost of living and decreased the number of low-skill jobs, causing them to move away or become homeless, while doing NOTHING to help the poor.
Notice how you never see stories like "San Francisco increased minimum wage and now there's fewer homeless people!"
In fact working class people are moving away from CA in droves. You idiots' policies have consequences. Now imagine applying your $15 minimum wage nationwide in rural America where $15 is more like $40 in a west coast city.
Limousine Libertarian wrote:
principles of economics wrote:
Go ahead and close. Welcome to business life-cycles.
If he closes. then they all makes $0. Further proof that minimum wage advocates are not just uninformed but malevolent.
No. They will not just sit there and make $0. They will seek another job, and because of imperfections in labor markets, they might qualify for some unemployment while searching for another job.
Why do you believe to understand the issues more than economists?
principles of economics wrote:
No. They will not just sit there and make $0. They will seek another job, and because of imperfections in labor markets, they might qualify for some unemployment while searching for another job.
Why do you believe to understand the issues more than economists?
I am very well educated in the field of economics. I've beaten every argument for the minimum wage into a pulp. This is nothing but an appeal to authority fallacy, which actually makes no sense, because economists do NOT overwhelmingly support minimum wage laws to fight poverty.
Limousine Libertarian wrote:
I am very well educated in the field of economics..
I don't consider anyone well educated in the field of economics unless they have a PhD.
The very fact that big businesses who were successful in 2009 have frozen their minimum wage rates at the same $7.25 many years later as all COLA metrics and their sales have risen, shows the free market has not done well at protecting these workers.
It shows they will exploit them any chance they can get.
Even as they reduced the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%, they still kept paying $7.25.
Because most people working full time on minimum wage salaries are poor. Someone making $24k a year and gets a raise that will bring them to $28k will make a much bigger difference in lifestyle/future opportunity than someone going from $100k->$104k.
I can’t speak for raising wages in a fast food chain but in a retail area the more you pay employees the better return you see when it comes to them selling product to customers.
principles of economics wrote:
Limousine Libertarian wrote:
I am very well educated in the field of economics..
I don't consider anyone well educated in the field of economics unless they have a PhD.
And I don't consider egghead academics qualified to destroy people's businesses or neighborhoods.
X-Runner wrote:
The very fact that big businesses who were successful in 2009 have frozen their minimum wage rates at the same $7.25 many years later as all COLA metrics and their sales have risen, shows the free market has not done well at protecting these workers.
It shows they will exploit them any chance they can get.
Even as they reduced the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%, they still kept paying $7.25.
Businesses don't "freeze their minimum wage rates." Minimum wage is a government policy. Think about how stupid that statement is.
After re-reading OP and what he was asking I do think gov’t intervention of minimum wage is bad but also necessary in some ways.
I know for a fact that if there was no minimum wage I’d be making much less. I work for a well known “small business” that makes $50 million a year and if there was an opportunity for the owner to pay us less so he could make more he would.
Wage laws are good to make sure people aren’t screwed but they also shouldn’t take an economy because it sounds good.
Friedrich Engels wrote:
If you pay your McDonald's worker more, they can actually afford eating at McDonald's too.
It's actually quite uncapitalistic not to raise the wages. You want to have as many good paid workers as possible because they are also the ones who buy your stuff.
Even Walmart figured that out a little bit.
Working as a bigger flipper at Micky Ds is not supposed to be a lifetime career. It’s a job for kids in high school. If you work there after age 20 and you haven’t advanced into Micky Ds management then you should consider advancing into a custodial career like janitor at the local high school or military service.
"Making it illegal to pay less than a given amount does not make a worker's productivity worth that amount–and, if it is not, that worker is unlikely to be employed. Yet minimum wage laws are almost always discussed politically in terms of the benefits they confer on workers receiving those wages. Unfortunately, the real minimum wage is always zero, regardless of the laws, and that is the wage that many workers receive in the wake of the creation or escalation of a government-mandated minimum wage, because they either lose their jobs or fail to find jobs when they enter the labor force."
-Thomas Sowell Basic Economics
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