Daily Debate: If Mo Farah wins Tokyo 10,000 gold, will he be the GOAT of track distance runners?

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  • o0o0o0
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 1:47pm CST
    re: adsfdasfasfsafadfa
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    adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:
    o0o0o0 wrote:
    No, I have not done a actual top 50 ranking list.

    But he was in the all-time top 10 in the 3000m until 1984, in the 2 Miles (in and out) until 2000, in the 5000m until 1982 and in the 10000m until 1978. Puttemans has faster PBs than Viren in any event from 1500m to 5000m (1 second slower in the 10000m) and also an world class steeple. Behind Henry Rono, he definitely was the best long distance runner against the clock of the 1970s. For me that's enough to guarantee him a place in the top 50.


    And if there are 70 people who can make the same arguments, how can they all be top 50?


    Impossible that there are 70 runners who can make those arguments. Name just 30.
  • TrackCoach
    registered
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 2:02pm CST
    re: Historyer
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    Historyer wrote:
    TrackCoach wrote:
    A few things:

    1. Mo is not going to win the Olympic 10K. I seriously doubt a race with at least 3 athletes capable of running faster times than Mo will make the mistake of allowing it to come down to a sprint finish. I will be the first to go the record and say Mo will not even medal at the Olympics.

    2. Winning an Olympic goal medal is the ultimate, in fact I would place winning WC gold medal over setting a world record. I have never heard an athlete who has won a gold medal express major disappointment for not setting a WR, but I have head it the other way around. Case in point, the great Daniel Komen and Henry Rono set several records are are only known among hard care track fans.

    3. If Bekele had not run another step after his track career, perhaps a case could be made. However, Bekele moved to roads and has exceled to the point where he is considered one of the worlds greatest marathoners. Mo would have to do more than win another Olympic 10K to supplant Bekele as the GOAT.


    You weren’t paying attention. The thread is about track distance runner GOAT, so your remarks about Bekele’s road career are not particularly relevant.


    Ok, fair enough, I missed the word "Track". However, whenever discussing distance runners, it is almost impossible to ignore cross country and the roads. Even we say we are only talking about track, in the back of our minds winning multiple XC titles can't be ignored.
  • Historyerr
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 2:08pm CST
    re: o0o0o0
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    The thread is about Farah who Wejo apparently thinks could be GOAT track distance runner with a gold in Tokyo. Of course if the competition shows up and Farah wins that would be enough to place Farah at the top. Again it won’t happen. Farah had an edge in closing speed but that has gone away at age 37 and soon to be 38. Farah likely could not run faster than 3:32 at Monaco in 2021 (as opposed to his 3:28) so his advantage is gone.
  • adsfdasfasfsafadfa
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 3:01pm CST
    re: o0o0o0
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    o0o0o0 wrote:

    Impossible that there are 70 runners who can make those arguments. Name just 30.


    Off the top of my head and in absolutely no order.

    In no order off the top of my head (did have to look up some spellings), here a bunch that are clearly better.

    1Viren
    Gammoudi
    Yifter
    Geb
    Bekele
    Farah
    Nurmi
    Ville Ritola
    Mimoun
    Kutts
    10 Zatopek
    Clarke
    Rono
    Auotia
    Eliud Kipchoge
    Sihine
    Tergat
    Kip Keino
    Kiptanui
    Komen
    20 Kemboi
    Cheptegi
    Bauman,
    Hissou
    Kipruto
    Mekhissi-Benabbad

    And some of roughly the same level of performance
    Tadese,
    Skah
    Richard Chelimo,
    Onediki
    Brahim Boutayeb
    Koech
    Mills
    El G,
    Lagat
    Haag
    Schul

    Notice how many names on my list are from the 90s ,00s, and 10s. If I could actually remember the 20s,30s,40s,50s,60s,70s, and 80s to go along with all the names I forgot from the later years we would be have a much longer list. Start adding in 1500m guys (not sure if we are counting them for this list) like Ryun, Elliot, Snell, Morceli, Coe, Cram , Ovett, Bayi, ... or the guys with XC chops (say Ngugi, Virgin) and it isn't close. I am sure you will disagree about some of them (heck I would have to think about some of them . :)) but as I said the list of fast distance runners is pretty darn long. I am not sure if there are many names to be added to the first list(harder to forget about legends) but that 2nd list is probably missing 50+ names that you could add in and debate depending on how you value things). For example is Rupp better? I would go no without the marathon, but it is close enough that I would have a hard time saying you are wrong if you swapped them on the list.
  • heartfoundation
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 6:08pm CST
    re: Real Obvi
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    yes
  • urdumb
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 6:55pm CST
    re: rojo
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    Of course he would be the goat. Only thing that matters is winning and he’s a winner. Imagine calling someone other than Brady the football goat because they have better “stats” (times) than Brady, you’d sound stupid. Imagine calling Russ the goat because his triple double stats despite not winning anything. This is completely wrong. Farah is the goat if he wins
  • trudy from djibouti
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 7:05pm CST
    re: urdumb
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    urdumb wrote: Imagine calling Russ the goat because his triple double stats despite not winning anything.


    There’s another NBA Russ who’s on the exact opposite side of this argument. I wouldn’t call him the GOAT, but he’s a lot better than Westbrook!

    These days I’m starting to wonder if Westbrook is detrimental to his team and they’d be better off with playing a 100% “average “ NBA player in his stead.
  • adsfdasfasfsafadfa
    5 days ago 01/13/2021 11:11pm CST
    re: urdumb
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    urdumb wrote:
    Of course he would be the goat. Only thing that matters is winning and he’s a winner. Imagine calling someone other than Brady the football goat because they have better “stats” (times) than Brady, you’d sound stupid. Imagine calling Russ the goat because his triple double stats despite not winning anything. This is completely wrong. Farah is the goat if he wins


    The difference is that in track one of the goals it to run fast. In basketball nobody cares if you win a 100-90 game or a 140-130 game. In track we care if you win running a 12:35 or a 13:35. Russ stats are more along the lines of Webbs record for the fastest 100 in the 3rd lap of a 1500m race.
  • o0o0o0
    5 days ago 01/14/2021 3:04am CST
    re: adsfdasfasfsafadfa
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    adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:
    o0o0o0 wrote:

    Impossible that there are 70 runners who can make THOSE arguments. Name just 30.


    Off the top of my head and in absolutely no order.

    In no order off the top of my head (did have to look up some spellings), here a bunch that are clearly better.

    1Viren *
    Gammoudi *
    Yifter *
    Geb
    Bekele
    Farah *
    Nurmi
    Ville Ritola
    Mimoun *
    Kutts
    10 Zatopek
    Clarke
    Rono
    Auotia
    Eliud Kipchoge *
    Sihine *
    Tergat *
    Kip Keino
    Kiptanui
    Komen
    20 Kemboi *
    Cheptegi
    Bauman, *
    Hissou
    Kipruto *
    Mekhissi-Benabbad *

    And some of roughly the same level of performance
    Tadese, *
    Skah *
    Richard Chelimo, *
    Onediki
    Brahim Boutayeb *
    Koech (which one? there are dozens of Koechs...)
    Mills *
    El G,
    Lagat *
    Haag
    Schul *

    Notice how many names on my list are from the 90s ,00s, and 10s. If I could actually remember the 20s,30s,40s,50s,60s,70s, and 80s to go along with all the names I forgot from the later years we would be have a much longer list. Start adding in 1500m guys (not sure if we are counting them for this list) like Ryun, Elliot, Snell, Morceli, Coe, Cram , Ovett, Bayi, ... or the guys with XC chops (say Ngugi, Virgin) and it isn't close. I am sure you will disagree about some of them (heck I would have to think about some of them . :)) but as I said the list of fast distance runners is pretty darn long. I am not sure if there are many names to be added to the first list(harder to forget about legends) but that 2nd list is probably missing 50+ names that you could add in and debate depending on how you value things). For example is Rupp better? I would go no without the marathon, but it is close enough that I would have a hard time saying you are wrong if you swapped them on the list.


    With an * I have marked those runners who can not touch Puttemans in THOSE ARGUMENTS I gave. For sure I'm not saying Puttemans must be ranked above all of them.

    It seems that multiple WRs is a much stronger argument for me than for you, and that's OK.
  • adsfdasfasfsafadfa
    5 days ago 01/14/2021 9:26am CST
    re: o0o0o0
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    o0o0o0 wrote:
    adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:

    1Viren *


    With an * I have marked those runners who can not touch Puttemans in THOSE ARGUMENTS I gave. For sure I'm not saying Puttemans must be ranked above all of them.

    It seems that multiple WRs is a much stronger argument for me than for you, and that's OK.


    yeah Viren with the WR at 2mile/10k and 4 olympic golds can't touch puttemans.:) And given Mo Farah has a world record , I think his 4 olympic golds more than make up for only having 1.
  • Oh Please
    registered
    5 days ago 01/14/2021 9:52am CST
    re: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
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    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot wrote:.... I don't believe Geb and Bekele were necessarily clean, but with Mo it just got to a level of obvious ridiculousness on a par with Wang Junxia.


    This statement is moronic. Geb and Bekele set several records, and until 2020, largely untouchable times. Yet you suggest Mo is more ridiculous because he ... didn't set WR or run as fast as those guys? All he did was win.
  • Tron
    registered
    5 days ago 01/14/2021 10:52am CST
    re: o0o0o0
    Forum Index
    o0o0o0 wrote:
    Tron wrote:

    I think the big difference to me is on top of that, Bekele basically ran every golden league race during those years and won. At one point after a loss to Lagat in 2006, Bekele went on to win close to 30 races in a row (don't have the exact number but that's what i recall reading) over the next few years.


    Not correct. After 5 wins he lost twice . He also lost in 2007, 2008, 2009.


    I know world XC in 2007 he lost. When on the track did he in those years?
  • Tron
    registered
    5 days ago 01/14/2021 10:54am CST
    re: westsouthrunner
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    westsouthrunner wrote:
    So you're saying bolt would be the goat without a world record? Or that mo farah could've won all the same races bekele won? Anyone can win any race. See the rio 1500 for example. Not everyone can run a world record (bekele is only a few years older than farah Interestingly enough).

    World records >>>>> titles even though I don't really respect cheptegeis we've light record

    Farah winning the 10000 again would put him in the goat conversation for me because I've always had him in 3rd clearly behind bekele and haile


    Bekele and Farah are within a year of each other
  • o0o0o0
    5 days ago 01/14/2021 1:05pm CST
    re: adsfdasfasfsafadfa
    Forum Index
    adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:
    o0o0o0 wrote:
    adsfdasfasfsafadfa wrote:

    1Viren *



    With an * I have marked those runners who can not touch Puttemans in THOSE ARGUMENTS I gave. For sure I'm not saying Puttemans must be ranked above all of them.

    It seems that multiple WRs is a much stronger argument for me than for you, and that's OK.


    yeah Viren with the WR at 2mile/10k and 4 olympic golds can't touch puttemans.:) And given Mo Farah has a world record , I think his 4 olympic golds more than make up for only having 1.


    OK, this is the point were I should realise that a serious discussion is not possible, when the other side is completely changing what I have said.

    When you don't read what the other writes, why are you going into a discussion at all?
  • Bad Wigins
    registered
    4 days ago 01/14/2021 8:43pm CST
    re: Historyer
    Forum Index
    Historyer wrote:
    Bad Wigins wrote:
    Is Kipketer "almost equal" to Nils Schuman or Vebjorn Rodahl? Of course not, he was far superior.

    Mo Farah has never held even one world record, and his winning track career started during a declining and ultimately soft era. Not even close to GOAT.

    Not even as good as Galen Rupp at 10,000.

    OK you cannot possibly believe that Mo Farah, clearly one of the top 5 10000m runners of all time, is “not even as good as Galen Rupp” when Galen is not even one of the top 20 10000m runners of all time.


    How can Mo be one of the top 5 if Rupp isn't one of the top 20?

    Face facts: Rupp was faster. This matters. Medals are nothing, and the era was soft.

    Bottom line is, neither Rupp nor Farah was anywhere near being an all-time great at 10,000. FFS they were preceded by Geb, Bekele and Tergat! And now there's fast people again. They're from a dark age where there were no greats at all.

    Nobody can ever be called a GOAT if they focused on 3 different distances and never set a WR. Best Mo could hope for is Range GOAT but 800-HM king Augustine Choge has that locked down.
  • o0o0o0
    3 days ago 01/15/2021 2:38pm CST
    re: Bad Wigins
    Forum Index
    Bad Wigins wrote:

    Face facts: Rupp was faster. This matters. Medals are nothing, and the era was soft.



    At least, you keep your posts on a constant level.
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