Ken Goe: A Salazar Shill to the End

casual obsever wrote:

anacondarunner wrote:Salazar's draconian punishment

Actually, he received the minimum punishment for his anti-doping rule violations as allowed by the code, which is the opposite of "draconian".

I am still hoping that CAS disagrees with such a small punishment.

He also got lucky that - in line with the code - the 4-year ban for testo, the 4-year ban for the forbidden method and the 2-year ban for tampering weren't treated separately, resulting in a 10-year ban.

A strange rule, btw. Imagine committing three different crimes with such jail terms of 2x 4 years and 1x 2 years, and then only serving 4 years...

Last but not least: the only two Americans so brutally crashing through the generous ABP thresholds in that 2016 list were the respective American stars from NOP and BTC, and the only Brit was the British star from NOP. That doesn't look like coincidence to me.

Completely agree. A life ban is appropriate, funny thing is there people who are worse......Rosa Snr & Jnr, Jama, John Smith.

rekrunner wrote:

Which pills, specifically, did Salazar send in a book? If they were not banned substances, this fact is largely irrelevant.

Lastly, thyroid is not banned, so no TUE is required.

It’s sad that Salazar was resorting to pills and grey area science to improve his athletes’ chances. Is that what sport should be about? Can I take this legal substance or wear this type of shoe to make me 1 second faster? That’s an arms race instead of a race to see who has the better combination of talent/training.

LOL - birth control pills... You should try to keep track of your lame excuses for all those despicable drug cheats. Last time you trolled us with:

Birth control pills during menopause raising the T/E ratio from 1 : 1 to above 11 : 1? Hahahaha, now I have heard everything,

LOL - there is zero reasonable doubt, as you can deduce from the ban of that drug cheat.

LOL - last time you trolled us with "Good way to protect them":

Thanks for the laughs. Keep them coming!

casual obsever wrote:

strong arm of the law wrote:

I think there is a lot of disagreement there. Most people believe in the fact that sleazy sal was giving EPO and steroids to rupp, mo, rowbury, hasay, et al.. That is exactly the line that sleazy sal repeatedly crossed throughout his coaching and running career.

Agreed. In fact, there is lots of evidence, but seemingly not enough for a court, because USADA had to rely on voluntary witness reports, and nobody was admitting to doping, in contrast to the otherwise quite comparable Armstrong scenario.

Wait, what?! People actually believe this stuff???? EPO or steroids has not once ever come up - outside of these sleazy message boards.

Birth control pills is not my excuse.

Apparently the IOC labs own internal research raised reasonable doubts about how well the T/E ratio can be used to determine doping. Today they combine it with more accurate CIR tests for really high T/E values.

I imagine the book did protect the pills. I also imagine that they must have been unbanned substances given the lack of charges against Rupp.

NiceTrollJob wrote:

Wait, what?! People actually believe this stuff???? EPO or steroids has not once ever come up - outside of these sleazy message boards.

Incorrect - that has come up lots of times outside of this board, including in USADA's 269 page document and in AAA's decision. Read and weep.

Or keep lying/trolling.

There are rules that he broke, such as the limitation on infusions to 50ml. He also broke rules concerning use of medical exemptions by coaching his athletes to run up the stairs to a doctor's appointment so as to get diagnosed as asthmatic or whatever for drugs. He also sent his athletes to Dr. Brown because he knew Brown would diagnose hypothyroidism in every athlete. Jerry and Wetmore, by contrast, dropped Brown when they realized it was a scam.

anacondarunner wrote:

parkerjohn wrote:

I listened to the whole interview. Ken is trying to be fair to Salazar but his his definition of cheating is more along the lines of - it’s not cheating unless you get caught breaking a specific rule. He doesn’t see anything wrong with the experiments. He doesn’t consider character or the integrity of the sport. Fitness is all that should matter. I also disagree with his take on these message boards. The forum is the best part of Let’s Run for me.

Right, but Salazar did get caught breaking three specific rules, so by Ken's standards, the case against him should be open and shut! But Ken inexplicably seems to believe that the only antidoping rule violation that matters is EPO abuse, and everything else should be free game.

Sure but. some of the rules breakage is pretty borderline. Calling Magness an athlete was a stretch. Giving your kids testosterone is creepy AF but it isn't in the same realm as doping. And I haven't seen enough to comment on the medical records falsification.

There is zero doubt that AlSal was pushing the line in ways that a lot of us don't like. Imagine all the stuff. is legal how would you feel knowing that some thyroid med was worth 3s, a random injection 2s, and the third another 3s. That isn't the sport of track and field that many of us love.

The only sure way to really find out what these coaches, athletes, and organizations like Nike are up is to conduct police investigations. But the FBI's not interested and Oregon police, like Oregon journalists, act as though they are bought and paid for by Nike.

zxcvzcxv wrote:

The only sure way to really find out what these coaches, athletes, and organizations like Nike are up is to conduct police investigations. But the FBI's not interested and Oregon police, like Oregon journalists, act as though they are bought and paid for by Nike.

That might be possible in countries that don't have a fourth amendment.

What Ken Goe failed to recognize (or turned a blind eye to, whatever) is that there is no reason, AT ALL for a coach, acting in that capacity professionally and has no qualification or necessary training , to be doing "experiments" with a controlled, banned substance like testosterone whatsoever. Salazar, who I remind you is not a scientist or medical professional with no scientific or research training ), has no justifiable reason to be handling or testing banned substances.

Even if your brain is smooth enough to believe his massively lame brained excuse for doing it, there are other, vastly more effective and thorough ways to get the info he needed He read peer reviewed papers, consult actual research scientists, or, in a dream world, possibly get funding to have someone who ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING to perform the research with the correct methods and proper oversight. Instead, he chose do to do it in house, which is absolutely indefensible. If you're dumb enough to believe that he wasn't trying to cheat or a Goe-esque apologist, he was endangering his employees/sons who, by regulation, CANNOT CONSENT TO BE RESEARCH SUBJECTS, and doing so with no adequate oversight to protect the said research subjects. It's plainly obvious, however, that he was trying to cheat, and the revelation that only he was allowed to massage Rupp (with mystery cream) is further damning fro both.

Either way, he was actively being negligent with a banned substance and endangering non-consenting research subjects for performance enhancement reasons. In my eyes, this alone is enough for a life time ban, either by WADA or by SafeSport.

I can agree he shouldn't be conducting testosterone experiments on his sons.

But as for "no reason", the AAA Panel were persuaded with Salazar's reasoning, with more data than I have.

There is no reason for me to ignore or second guess the AAA Panel's stated opinions and conclusions.

Maybe no one disputed it because the reasoning was immaterial as he shouldn't have been doing it in the first place. If they actually believed him, then it means he's suffering from extreme paranoia and should be prohibited from coaching until he seeks behavior health treatment.

Regardless, his reasoning for the "experiments" IF TRUE still does not justify his actions one bit. He is not remotely qualified or competent enough to perform those "experiments" and there were other more reliable and appropriate avenues he should have to answer pursued to answer the "question" he was supposedly seeking. He choose the path of negligence and disregarded for other's well being by willfully put un-consenting individuals at risk of bodily harm, which demonstrates that he cannot coach athletes or managed a club safely. Again, he needs a lifetime ban, either from WADA or SafeSport.

The fact is, sleazy has been a doping cheater since the 80s. There's no gray area here, he is a straight out cheater. And he is a horrible person. It is too bad that they didn't give him the lifetime ban and jail time that he deserves.

The Angel of Death wrote:

Maybe no one disputed it because the reasoning was immaterial as he shouldn't have been doing it in the first place. If they actually believed him, then it means he's suffering from extreme paranoia and should be prohibited from coaching until he seeks behavior health treatment.

Regardless, his reasoning for the "experiments" IF TRUE still does not justify his actions one bit. He is not remotely qualified or competent enough to perform those "experiments" and there were other more reliable and appropriate avenues he should have to answer pursued to answer the "question" he was supposedly seeking. He choose the path of negligence and disregarded for other's well being by willfully put un-consenting individuals at risk of bodily harm, which demonstrates that he cannot coach athletes or managed a club safely. Again, he needs a lifetime ban, either from WADA or SafeSport.

Again, regardless of your opinions, I see no reason for me to ignore or second guess the AAA Panel's stated opinions and conclusions.

Since his sons were not athletes, WADA and Safesport ability to respond is limited, because there is no showing that any athletes were endangered in an experiment on subjects who are not subject to WADA or SafeSport.

This explains why USADA was only able to act against Salazar, a coach subject to WADA, for the act of supplying the testosterone from his personal stock, i.e. "trafficking to third parties", and not able to prosecute anything directly about the experiment itself. To put that in perspective, if Nike doctors had supplied the testosterone instead, there would be no grounds for banning Salazar for trafficking, nor Dr. Brown for complicity with trafficking, nor other Nike doctors, not subject to WADA or to SafeSport.

zxcvzcxv wrote:

The only sure way to really find out what these coaches, athletes, and organizations like Nike are up is to conduct police investigations. But the FBI's not interested and Oregon police, like Oregon journalists, act as though they are bought and paid for by Nike.

Nike lawyers are the problem, as well as the win at any and all costs at Nike

rekrunner wrote:

To put that in perspective, if Nike doctors had supplied the testosterone instead, there would be no grounds for banning Salazar for trafficking, nor Dr. Brown for complicity with trafficking, nor other Nike doctors, not subject to WADA or to SafeSport.

But they didn't. AlSal provided the testosterone, which was an antidoping rule violation, and he was rightfully banned as a consequence.

anacondarunner wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

To put that in perspective, if Nike doctors had supplied the testosterone instead, there would be no grounds for banning Salazar for trafficking, nor Dr. Brown for complicity with trafficking, nor other Nike doctors, not subject to WADA or to SafeSport.

But they didn't. AlSal provided the testosterone, which was an antidoping rule violation, and he was rightfully banned as a consequence.

Yes he did and yes it was and yes he was.

We were talking about possible alternatives -- "Angel of Death" started with "there were other more reliable and appropriate avenues he should have to answer pursued to answer the "question" he was supposedly seeking".

I gave a perspective to show just how close USADA was to failing.