Jonathan Gault is (rightly) full of praise for Elijah Manangoi - a guy who just got banned for 2 years

rule readerr wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I've assumed nothing. On the contrary, I've rejected assumptions lacking any specific basis in fact or evidence.

I have only stated what the facts are, and what is not fact.

The AIU made no conclusions about the intent and motivation for the missed tests, and did not infer that the missed tests were intentional, nor did they infer the involvement of any banned substances.

Manangoi and Kisiorio are the same in the sense that they both accepted their guilt for the offense for which they were busted, unlike Coleman, who blamed the system.

In fact, Manangoi accepted the blame completely, not pointing fingers at others, whereas Kisorio shared the blame by also pointing fingers at doctors.

This is deserving of praise. I note that Kirsorio did not confess to other offenses for which he was not busted.

I fully agree with you.

The fact that Kenya recently introduced a rule stating that those guilty of anti'doping offences would never represent Kenya again, and are already considering waiving it because of Manangoi's 'acceptance of blame', might also explain the differences.

Coevett wrote:

rule readerr wrote:

I fully agree with you.

The fact that Kenya recently introduced a rule stating that those guilty of anti'doping offences would never represent Kenya again, and are already considering waiving it because of Manangoi's 'acceptance of blame', might also explain the differences.

Would the ban to stop competing for Kenya after a doping offence not be in breach of the wada code.

I am minded of the BOA and Chambers matter.

Yet an other contortion within the Wada code that will bring it all tumberling down as the lawyers become very rich picking over the bones of the sport.

rekrunner wrote:

........ wrote:

What is the point here? Why does anyone care about his whereabouts? You damn well know why. Stop playing the fool.

The point is that I was accused of being dishonest, while I was being honest and truthful.

I'm not so interested in what other people care about, per se, but just point out that the specific "drug cheat" allegation is without any specific basis in fact, lacking even circumstantial evidence -- this inference could be considered dishonest.

Apparently "rojo" and "gault" agreed with that and changed their graphic to be more honest.

You can say people are not interested, but we are on the 6th page of a whereabouts thread, and it was not the only thread on Manangoi.

The whereabouts failures are the only specific facts on Manangoi here in evidence.

The point is that Manangoi has made the decision to avoid being tested so that fools like you will say he is not a drug cheat. The intelligent understand what is happening here. You are a troll who doesn’t have the analytical ability to draw inferences. Educate yourself.

There is no indication that he made a decision to avoid a test.

No court would accept such an inference as you suggest. We just don’t know .

rule readerr wrote:

........ wrote:

The point is that Manangoi has made the decision to avoid being tested so that fools like you will say he is not a drug cheat. The intelligent understand what is happening here. You are a troll who doesn’t have the analytical ability to draw inferences. Educate yourself.

There is no indication that he made a decision to avoid a test.

No court would accept such an inference as you suggest. We just don’t know .

Correct.

If avoid a test then that is separate offence and they did not prosecute for that.

........ wrote:

The point is that Manangoi has made the decision to avoid being tested so that fools like you will say he is not a drug cheat. The intelligent understand what is happening here. You are a troll who doesn’t have the analytical ability to draw inferences. Educate yourself.

All this name calling -- not really a strong sign of an intelligent argument if you have to resort to such personal attacks.

Did Manangoi make these decisions? I can infer that that is pure personal speculation on your part. And it doesn't pass the brain challenge I offered a few pages back.

I can draw other inferences, but I also possess the intelligence to realize that lacking specific facts and evidence, there is a high risk that it is a false inference.

rule readerr wrote:

Wada site says athletes, which inc all sportspeople, and not runners.

The country count I gave was for the sport of athletics -- aka track and field -- and not all sports people.

It includes runners, but you are right -- the sport of athletics also includes athletes from field events and race-walkers.

rekrunner wrote:

rule readerr wrote:

Wada site says athletes, which inc all sportspeople, and not runners.

The country count I gave was for the sport of athletics -- aka track and field -- and not all sports people.

It includes runners, but you are right -- the sport of athletics also includes athletes from field events and race-walkers.

I don’t believe that the one for t and F athletes shows national figures for postives.

Good if you to come back in the matter.

We are both agreed that whereabouts does not mean a drug taker.The ones that might be are those who change their hour a lot. Wada have the names of such; will they publish?

Missing three drugs tests for a distance runner in a country with more than 120 drug busts for distance runners is a pretty good indicator that the person is taking drugs. That’s why he is banned for two years.

Kenyan distance runner drug busts out pace those of distance runner drug busts by rest of the world put together, easily!

If you have been to Kenya or other country in Africa, you know if it seems suspicious you’re about to cheated, robbed, misinformed, led astray etc.

Even drug testing is corrupt there. Kiprop had to give the testers tea money (small bribe) to even ensure the test was followed properly.

You can pay your way out of almost anything in Kenya. If you get busted you may have done something wrong, you may not have, but you did not pay what was asked of you. That’s the bottom line.

Taking drugs to earn money running races is a no brained for Kenyan runners. It’s not even a real crime. The money from a few races can set up the runner’s entire family for life. It can get your whole family out of poverty. Why wouldn’t they take drugs? It’s stupid to think they wouldn’t. The stakes are different and so is the culture. You don’t even need a prescription for the drugs. It’s the cost that’s the main prohibiter. Morals, ethics and fair play don’t mean a thing. It’s business for them.

Much merit in the above.

Wada was never going to work in cultures were corruption is high.

All it has done is smash sport in the “west “ and leave a far greater uneven playing field than before.

Weight Lifting shows this with even greater clarity.

“Inside the games “ has the detail of corruption and cover up.

Remember it was bribes for cover ups that brought Diack down.

I didn't find much merit in the post, disagreeing with some of the points, and finding others were simply not true:

- missing three tests is a poor indicator of a person taking drugs

- Manangoi was banned for whereabouts failures, not taking drugs

- I haven't seen any comparative data for distance runner drug busts, but the most drug busts by far is Russia. In the few comparative prevalence statistics I've seen (there is not much data that has been made public, and some is not official) shows Kenyan blood doping prevalence is average or less than average.

- The very fact that Kiprop tested positive is an indication that the "tea money" was not a bribe, as it failed to achieve its alleged purpose.

- Athletes taking drugs in Kenya is a crime. "Kenya passed a law in April 2016 that criminalizes doping by athletes and threatens drug cheats with prison sentences."

Please read carefully in future .

I have said many times the whereabouts offences do not mean an assumption of drug use.

Please explain what you depend upon for “ average EPO use” ?

Which standard of proof will the Kenyan courts have.

Beyond reasonable doubt or comfortable satisfaction and will the courts take evidence from non wada labs.

Another problem for wada!

“From 2004 to August 2018, 138 Kenyan athletes tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs, according to a WADA report published in September 2018.

Among the top athletes who have been sanctioned for doping offences are 2008 Beijing Olympics 1500 metres champion Asbel Kiprop, 2016 Rio Olympics women's marathon champion Jemima Sumgong, and three-time Boston Marathon champion Rita Jeptoo.”

It’s not a crime in Kenya to use PEDs. There was talked about making it a crime for agents to administer drugs but nothing is on the books yet.

138 drug busts for Kenyan distance runners from 2004 to 2018 is more distance runner drug busts for distance runners than the rest of the world combined.

Don’t apply Western first world logic to this situation. It doesn’t work in Africa.

He was dodging testers and will make up any story to spin it to save face. 100 percent dirty.

Apply the stats to a US sprints. If 138 US sprinters tested positive, including Olympic champions and world record holders, and another top sprinter missed three tests, what do you logically infer.

Do not apply western, privileged logic to this.

These Kenyan guys are doing the best for their family’s future, trying to escape poverty. Would you take PEDs to rescue your entire family from a lifetime of poverty? Would you let your children go without meals to take the high western moral ground to play sport for fun and preach sporting ethics to your peers?

No, of course you wouldn’t. You’d do everything you can to save your family.

Don’t blame these guys for taking PEDs and don’t excuse them for lying about it either.

Accept it as a reality, and learn that things in Africa are different.

Thanks, makes sense and illuminating.

rule readerr wrote:

Please read carefully in future .

I have said many times the whereabouts offences do not mean an assumption of drug use.

Please explain what you depend upon for “ average EPO use” ?

Which standard of proof will the Kenyan courts have.

Beyond reasonable doubt or comfortable satisfaction and will the courts take evidence from non wada labs.

Another problem for wada!

I will read carefully in the future, just like the present and the past.

The only comment directed at you was that you found "much merit" in the post.

The rest was my findings of the post by "been to Kenya" - I suppose I should have responded to his post instead.

Speaking of reading carefully, I did not say "average EPO use" but "blood doping prevalence".

But to answer your question, the Sunday Times reported summaries of an analysis of leaked blood values (google "Sunday Times doping scandal") covering the years 2001-2012.

The values broken out for Kenya (and Ethiopia) were both below the overall average.

The IAAF also produced a study estimating blood doping prevalence for 2011 and 2013 World Championships. It was anonymized by country, but letsrun sleuths worked out which countries were which.

The Kenyan values varied, with average values, below average values, and in one case (Kenyan men 2011) above average.

The 2011 men value was 20% of the absolute total (so far below all other countries combined) and the prevalence (%) was still far below Morocco, Turkey, Russia, and Ukraine.

Maybe it is you projecting Western values and applying Western logic onto Kenyans.

Hiding from the testers is a Western technique of sophisticated dopers like Lance Armstrong and teammates.

Going to a doctor for regular ailments who is aware of WADA obligations is a Western sophistication.

We know (from a WADA study on these 138 athletes) that Kenyan doping is largely opportunistic and unsophisticated -- maybe this explains the large number of busts, as they are not avoiding the testers because they have an unsophisticated understanding, if not outright ignorance, of when they are "glowing".

Another factor often ignored, when looking at absolute numbers, is that the number of Kenyan athletes is far greater than the number of US sprinters.

It's also unsurprising to me that of these 138 athletes, some small handful of athletes are accomplished medal winners and champions with names, but most are no-names you've never heard of with unimpressive careers.

There are only a “small handful” of Kenyan runners with Olympic/world championship golds and world records you moron. A high percentage of these have been busted.

That 138 busted Kenyans does not include 2019 and 2020. It’s a far higher number than worldwide drug busts for distance runners combined.

Go to Africa you naive, gullible twat! You’ll be robbed, cheated and lied to dozens of times a day. However, what ever is extracted from your privileged self will be used for a far nobler purpose, like keeping a family alive, than you intended it for.

been to kenya wrote:

There are only a “small handful” of Kenyan runners with Olympic/world championship golds and world records you moron. A high percentage of these have been busted.

That 138 busted Kenyans does not include 2019 and 2020. It’s a far higher number than worldwide drug busts for distance runners combined.

Go to Africa you naive, gullible twat! You’ll be robbed, cheated and lied to dozens of times a day. However, what ever is extracted from your privileged self will be used for a far nobler purpose, like keeping a family alive, than you intended it for.

More name-calling? How intellectual.

Some data:

Of those 138 busted, only 131 were for athletics.

Kenya has won 31 Olympic Gold medals and 60 World Championship Gold medals, and probably dozens of world records.

Your small hands must be really big.

When you say "high percentage", can you be more precise?

You only listed two gold medalists and no world record holders.