Thoughts on 5,000 TT result

You should bump this up in the morning EDT when there will be people awake to give you good advice!

Good luck!

(I would recommend more VO2Max work if you are truly chasing a 5k PR and not just general distance running fitness - but depends a lot on the kind of runner you are)

Thanks for chiming in. I forgot about the massive time zone difference.

I do a variety of quality workouts, but as mentioned, they are based on Jack Daniel's Running Formula (3rd Edition). I was doing stuff like 3 x ( 200, 200, 400 ) @ R pace, 5 x 1000 m @ I pace w/ 3' recovery jogs, 5-6 km tempo runs.

I think your biggest opportunity for improvement is to increase weekly volume. And you are correct that cooler weather will help, though maybe not a ton over 5k. The other factor is simply racing the distance few times will help. I’d guess on your current plan you could shoot for sub 17:30 in 2 months.

Increase mileage. With PB from 15:30-20:00 range most improvement will be from the mileage.

But correct way: what is limiting you mostly now? - answer on this question will be answer in your case.

Road TT can be slower compare to track due to simple thing: gradient, wind.

Considering you were able to close in a 79" lap, you were probably capable of a bit faster. At this point, I agree with others that a bump in volume will help, but you won't see any noticeable differences in the next 2 months. Volume takes cycles to show effects.

I would suggest one day a week of threshold stuff 3-4 miles worth of reps at about 5:55-6:00 pace with short recoveries and another of either 3k pace or 5k pace reps of about 2 miles total.

There is strong almost linear correlation between weekly volume and desired VDOT value.

Ok, your target is 17:00 5K TT, no problem:

1) your vdot target=60.1

2) minimum weekly volume to be fit by aerobic base to vdot=60 is 6h+-2h (individuality), 6h*(60/easy run pace)=your weekly mileage. Correct one is weekly running hours, not a mileage (vary depend on your run speed, and mostly easy run speed)

3) workouts:

- you teach your body to hold pace 03:24min/km 17min

- you teach your body to run economically

I realize that track will always be faster. But the road route was fairly flat and I had tailwind. Yet, I was flat after 2 km. However running it in a fasted state does not seem practical in hindsight.

Regarding your question of what is limiting me, it seems that my stride length (i.e. power) could improve. My average cadence for these attempts has been around 180 spm.

The 79" closing lap is why I wrote this thread. I now know for sure that I could have went faster, but how much is the question. I forgot to mention that I've run a 3000 m TT the week before (1st time) in 10:31. Same track, but more humid on the day.

Interesting point, I appreciate it.

My weekly running hours (on average for last 4 weeks) have been 5h21m. I do a fair bit of strength training and occasional indoor cycling in addition to that.

Other people have said it, you're in a really fun period of training. It's easier to jump from 17's to 16's but some people never get into the 15's from there. Volume will help. You need to find a balance between speed & endurance. Your mile/3k are probably not in line with a sub-17:00 5k. Maybe start there and focus on some shorter workouts. The strength needs to get upped too because I would expect you to have a slightly faster 10k & half. Consistency is key but you won't find your 5k potential until you've found it at the 1500-3k.

At 29, you are unlikely to make a huge improvement to your PR. Low 17s is certainly possible though. I set my 5k PR at 24 after college on 40MPW as opposed to the 65 I was doing in college. It got progressively slower after that even with bumping mileage above what I did in college.

I’m surprised that your 10k and half marathon are so relatively strong. Maybe that’s because I’m used to coaching kids and they skew toward the shorter stuff.

If you’re following the JD plan, replace some of the I pace stuff with 6-9 k worth of cruise intervals. This along with a bump in volume will build the underlying fitness to bring about a PR.

I second the part about increased volume. Build in another 60-90 min of easy to steady running. Start by adding 15-20 min to the long run and 10 min to 3 of your other runs. Build from there.

Sounds like you are organizing your whole schedule. If your goal is to lower the 5K PB specifically, then I would look at some resources like this link:

https://www.cscca.org/document/triphasic_training_vandyke

Block training isn’t a requirement but the principles of cyclic training and variation through your training weeks will definitely help to fight the injury bug. If you’re writing your own strength training as well, then it’s easy to implement some of the ideas without disrupting the core of you JD structure.

Cheers!

jiggyjiggy wrote:

I realize that track will always be faster. But the road route was fairly flat and I had tailwind. Yet, I was flat after 2 km. However running it in a fasted state does not seem practical in hindsight.

Regarding your question of what is limiting me, it seems that my stride length (i.e. power) could improve. My average cadence for these attempts has been around 180 spm.

Interesting. Usually young people has limit with aerobic base, not a power in legs (plenty hormones/good recovery and easy to build muscle power).

How to be sure:

1) ride on bike with one leg, if pulse more than 150++, aerobic base is poor.

2) run on road with pulse 120 bpm 20min, if avg pace > 06:00min/km++, than same....?

Alright.

Your 5K PB=18:00+- vdot=56

How much time is need to reach 17:00 (vdot=60)?

Simple:

60-56=4, 1 point of vdot=60h+-10h of running, so 4*60+-10=240h+-40h, and you have to keep 6h per week, so 240+-40/6=40+-7 weeks of training.

Summary you need:

33-47 weeks of training if weekly volume 6h.

For 2month it will be peanuts, only 1 vdot point, which is equal to shave 16sec+-2 from your PB.

Ok, I appreciate all your input, and I will get back to you individually. For now I want to give more context:

I was obese in 2009 maxing out at 105 kg (231 lbs) when I 18 years old. I went on to lose 15 kg's in 45 days on a bet with my mother (thanks mom, your cynicism started it all). However, I did not start pursuing running per se until 2013, when I went for a run on the beachfront and couldn't run more than a kilometer without coughing. I went back home, smoked my last batch, and quit cold turkey. I did Insanity home workouts two months, then went on to run again. I easily finished 3 kms (1.8 miles) and had more in the tank. So I caught the bug. I run my first race ever in January 2014 which was a 1:49 half marathon. My training was very sporadic and non structured with a longest run of 14 km/8.6 mi and some football(soccer).

September 2014 I run a 47' 10K in Richmond Park, UK. September 2015 I run a 1:42:43 half marathon in Brooklyn, NYC. April 2016 I run a 3:56:29 in Hamburg, Germany.

The pattern was going longer, but never putting proper focus to speed. I had my shares of niggles and injuries, nastiest of which was ITB which sidelined me for 4 months after the 10K in 2014, but I started paying attention to form.

The following years were sort of mediocre compared to the substantial jump I made in 2019, when I brought together a small group of runners and started doing serious track sessions, tempo runs and long runs. I soon began placing in our small local running club. In March 2019, my 5K was 21:21, June 2019 I've run a 20:37 in Vondelpark, Amsterdam (Oh I miss you). September 2019 I've run my first sub 20 during a 5.4 km very hot and humid cross country race, and the rest is mentioned above.

TL,DR:

Been running since 2013, PB was 21:21 until September 2019, training seriously since and now at 17:51. Wondering about what is yet to come.

I agree. One note though: I haven't put my mile time, because I've never actually run the mile (nor 1600 m). I should do that sometime though. Like I said in my previous post, my PBs are all within the previous year, since that's when I began pushing it in training and racing. Also, our climate does not permit for year-round PB attempts, so we're confined to few months of decent weather, and that's when the PBs happen. My 1:27:45 HM was supposed to take place in an actual race, which was cancelled. I went ahead and did a TT with the help of few friends pacing me, but I was running alone after 10 km in the 5.4 km loop, so I definitely see myself running sub 1:25 now in good conditions.

Thank you for the anecdote. I don't know, I'm not that sold into the age limitation. My running age is 7 years old. I don't think nor feel that I peaked just yet. Especially given the improvements that happened during the last year. I was doing 70-80 km weeks training for a marathon in 2016, but my 5K was no where near as fast.

Love it, will check them out. Thank you a lot.