Pennsylvania State Championship long course!

Most of the kids are just not that fast. Sure some will be decent D3 runners but very few national class runners in PA this year. There are several national championships over th coming weeks. You will see some of the PA kids get crushed.

naw to NAU wrote:

Most of the kids are just not that fast. Sure some will be decent D3 runners but very few national class runners in PA this year. There are several national championships over th coming weeks. You will see some of the PA kids get crushed.

Definitely no one from PA has signed with any decent schools this year.

Robert Didanoto - Stanford, Emily Carter - Oklahoma State , Colton Sands - North Carolina , Brendan Collwell - Penn State , Dylan Throop - Penn....

“And, sure, course length may not matter but I'm guessing the state football championships won't be on a 110 yard field. It just shows a lack of caring to not measure the course for an event like this.”

I think this sums up the intent of the original post!

high school xc coach wrote:

the format is fine. that is how things need to be done. the best are gonna end up at the top either way.

the course being long is a ridiculous disappointment. Do you know what they added on to get the extra 250 meters ?

I agree that the best 10-20 runners will still be at the top, but it’s tough to determine an actual champion through waves. I only had access to watch the AAA boys races, and the last wave had a boy solo the entire race to win by probably 100 meters—but he didn’t finish in the top 5 of the combined results. Would have been interesting to see how he fared head to head vs. boys in the other waves.

(656)# wrote:

“And, sure, course length may not matter but I'm guessing the state football championships won't be on a 110 yard field. It just shows a lack of caring to not measure the course for an event like this.”

I think this sums up the intent of the original post!

Cross Country isn't football. Dumb comparison.

People cry about kids these days but it's really the parents that ruin the sports experience for the kids.

Funny when feelings get hurt with facts. Most PA kids are not that good. Too bad you didn't get a short course to make you feel good about your kid.

Did you learn English? The statement was that there are very few national class runners in PA. You get angry and list a combined 5 boys and girls and make a stupid statement. Your analysis made the point that there are very few national class runners.

I think there are a number of misconceptions/factors to consider.

First, there are really now 3 different Hershey courses:

Course 1: The 'traditional' states course with poop out hill at the end. This course has not, however, been used since I think Foundation in 2019. Poop out hill is really a highlight of the race with a tough steep but punchy ascent just before the finishing straight.

Course 2: There is the modified course that was used at States last year and I believe the year before due to rain. This eliminates poop out hill in favor of a long uphill drag including a much longer and deceptively hard finishing straight.

Course 2a: Then there is the third version of the course which is what was used this year at Foundation and States. Two modifications were made. First, return from the Aloha Hills to was changed to keep them on the gravel road the whole way. This should've shortened things a tiny bit and made the elevation change a little less (there is a short hill to return to the grass section by the road that is eliminated). This was done not for spectators but to allow them to have a course that can handle waves (without this change there needs to be an official moving flagging at a key intersection near 2 miles). But, the course also appears to go out on the loop between mile 2 and 3 further. From what I've heard (almost no one can get out there) they basically used that portion of the course from the old poop out hill version (Course 1) of the course but this adds a lot of distance because the finishing stretch (same Course 2) on the new course is also longer so this third course is almost definitely long.

While different runners may be impacted differentially, it seems evident to me that the non poop out version (Course 2 and 2a) is more challenging. Runners tend to suffer and slow down more as a result of a long drag when they are really tired rather a short but steep hill where momentum and adrenaline gets them through. The last approx. .25 mile of this course this past year looked like an absolute death march for many of the runners.

Second, while a course is a course and they all ran it, it is important to remember two other factors.

1. There was no course preview. No one had an opportunity (other than at Foundation) to experience these changes and make a race strategy that incorporated the long course. I think many experienced runners entered thinking it was the same as years past when it was not.

2. The nature of the heats exacerbated the problem. For example, Jenna Mulhern (state champion 2 years ago in AAA), ran in the first 'team' heat of 28 runners. I am sure her coach advised her that that she needed to be pushing hard at all times because much of her competition would be in the later individual heats 3 and 4 and she would have no idea how they would do. Combine the inability to see your competition with an unknown course that was probably long and it is not surprising that she basically collapsed just before the 3 mile mark and was passed by Margaret Carroll who also appeared to be completely at her limit (video shows her swerving away from the finish line).

The high temperatures and poor air quality measure probably compounded the high variance in performances.

Ultimately, while I am glad we had a PIAA state meet, I think the PIAA dropped the ball with the course details (why not do poop out hill? Why not allow a course preview?) and the excessively small heats. The AAA heats were 28, 28, 30, and 25 (actually may have been lower due to a few DNS). Given the difficulty of the course and the tendency of the race to spread out quickly, these were just too small a number. Nearly every district and league meet was substantially larger. You basically got a race were some runners were disadvantaged due to the heat they were in whereas others had the benefit of competition around them. If you are not going to create big enough heats (I think two heats of 55-56 would've been fine), you might as well do a complete time trial so all runners are in the same boat (like in a nordic XC race). There was still some excitement and I think the state champs probably would have not changed but I am sure the top 25 would've been substantially different and the times would've been faster.

Personally, I'd like to see the States course move around year to year. This course benefits some runners more than others and does make PA look slow. It would be great to see it back at Penn State like it used to be, which offers a very fair (hard but not crazy hard) course.

Runner10287 wrote:

(656)# wrote:

“And, sure, course length may not matter but I'm guessing the state football championships won't be on a 110 yard field. It just shows a lack of caring to not measure the course for an event like this.”

I think this sums up the intent of the original post!

Cross Country isn't football. Dumb comparison.

People cry about kids these days but it's really the parents that ruin the sports experience for the kids.

It's not a dumb comparison at all and I guess it's not the letsrun MB without someone trying to escalate.

My wife is a coach and I volunteer. She runs the same course every year but every August I go out and remark, remeasure the course. I use a wheel, I use a bike and I use GPS. I do it forward and backward. At the end our course is exactly 5.0000km. That's for dual meets. Why? because despite your comment not all parents ruin the sports experience for the kids. Many parents volunteer time and money to support the sport. No one is crying saying it was unfair and that it should be short to make them feel good about better times.

How is it unreasonable to expect the State Championship to meet be the correct distance? It's not that difficult to do. If people can do it for a dual meet, they sure as heck can do it for a state championship meet. Why is that so hard to understand?

pastateswatcher wrote:

1. There was no course preview. No one had an opportunity (other than at Foundation) to experience these changes and make a race strategy that incorporated the long course. I think many experienced runners entered thinking it was the same as years past when it was not.

I'd also add that many students were unable to run Foundation because they only accepted full teams and would not accept individual runners.

naw to NAU wrote:

Funny when feelings get hurt with facts. Most PA kids are not that good. Too bad you didn't get a short course to make you feel good about your kid.

Why be so adversarial and state that 'most PA kids are not that good'. No one was arguing PA was better than some other state. The OP was saying was that the meet was a mess and the PIAA dropped the ball. That was 100% true. Many coaches have raised concerns about the way the meet was going to be run but those concerns were ignored by the PIAA. The early concerns were reduced qualifiers for the larger districts and then running the race in waves. But having having the kids warmup on a parking lot with no shade away from the course AND not allowing a course preview AND there being insufficient water / medical after the race AND the course being long was just a bad combination all around.

And while you are ripping on PA, take note that the best kid in the state wasn't able to run because his school district decided not to compete due to Covid. Robert DiDonato ran a 14:25 as a solo effort. Dylan Throop ran a 14:45 but passed out at the state meet as did many other people.

And, maybe also consider for a second the frustration these kids are having. Their spring season was cancelled. Then they delayed the start of XC. Then the governor suggested all sports be cancelled until Jan. Then after 2 weeks they allowed it to start again. Then they cancelled half of the invites, moved districts, etc. It's been a rough year for them.

Sorry but it is a dumb comparison. Cross country isn't about precision and obsessing over course details does ruin it for the kids. So good job adult.

Maybe you didn't realize that many states are not competing. Maybe you didn't realize that you live in the best country in the world. Read your post and absorb the types of things you view as worthy to complain about.

Ran an XC season opener. Course was 3.37-3.39 miles based on multiple GPS watches and then mapping with a few different programs. So at least 3.3. I brought this up and was blasted by the RD and a few others. 3.25 doesn’t sound so bad in hindsight. I remember going through mile 1 waaaaaaaay slower than I felt I was going. Sorta threw my whole race off.

[/quote]

And while you are ripping on PA, take note that the best kid in the state wasn't able to run because his school district decided not to compete due to Covid. Robert DiDonato ran a 14:25 as a solo effort. [/quote]

Robert DiDonato attends Germantown Academy and their school is not part of the PIAA. They, along with many other private schools are part of the PA Independent Schools Association (PAISAA). Neither he nor his school was eligible to run in the PIAA championships.

naw to NAU wrote:

Maybe you didn't realize that many states are not competing. Maybe you didn't realize that you live in the best country in the world. Read your post and absorb the types of things you view as worthy to complain about.

Ah yes, the age old "Well you have a broken leg, but other people were born without legs!" argument. Just because other places have it worse doesn't invalidate your own issues. For better or worse, the vast majority of people don't care at all about other people's issues, and I fail to see why people continue to try and persuade people to do so.

come on now wrote:

naw to NAU wrote:

Maybe you didn't realize that many states are not competing. Maybe you didn't realize that you live in the best country in the world. Read your post and absorb the types of things you view as worthy to complain about.

Ah yes, the age old "Well you have a broken leg, but other people were born without legs!" argument. Just because other places have it worse doesn't invalidate your own issues. For better or worse, the vast majority of people don't care at all about other people's issues, and I fail to see why people continue to try and persuade people to do so.

I'm not talking about serious issues like mass poverty or similarly far reaching things of course, more things that are small in the grand scheme of it all.

The course looks very nice from photos on various sites. 3 to 3.25 miles is no problem for HS. Course records for us were not an issue due to yearly minor course variances. Many of our X races were single track through woods for about 1/2 of the race at least. The terrain was a lot rougher in most places. Still the same sport though regardless of the distance everybody lines up and runs the same course on the day.

You got it. The vast majority of people don't care about other people's issues. Glad you understand why you should stop complaining about course length or heat or not seeing the course. Nobody cares about your complaints just like you said.

Old is as old does wrote:

I am a coach in PA, I have made 12 consecutive trips to States and have run the course myself several times. The course is 5000m. the only change to the course this year was purely cosmetic to keep spectators off the course.

If times were slow it was from the small race format and the warm temps 70+

If you ran and used GPS, You should know that GPS is terribly inaccurate. And if you were an athlete using GPS you should have been DQ’d. Wearing a watch is legal, but using GPS is not. I am a certified PIAA official as well as a coach.

I'm not sure how you can definitively say this course is 5000m. Haven't they changed it at least twice over the past decade? Once when they built the Park Blvd connection in 2014 or 15, and another time when they removed Poop Out? I've been removed from high school XC since I last ran in 2012, but I can tell you that's a completely different course from 12 years ago.

At the end of the day I don't care how long it was, I only care about how my runner placed. Considering most runners who've ran this version of the course and wore GPS watches had some bonus mileage, I would say there's a chance it's long. Seems like an incredibly easy fix since they could just move the final turn closer to the finish.