Pennsylvania State Championship long course!

First of all I have no dog in this fight. I know none of the winners in yesterday’s races. But times are not irrelevant if you were on pace for a potential state record. And, when you are running in random ‘heats’ the time is the ONLY thing that matters. Last years winner (Patrick Anderson) ran in swamp conditions and came through 1 mile at 4:55, 2 miles at 10:10, and finished in state/course record 15:25. This year’s leaders came through the mile at 4:54, 2 miles at 10:10 and then at the 4K point an additional trail loop was added that was not there last year and the fastest winner finished in 16:09. 44 seconds slower than last year over the last 1.1 miles in better conditions? Every runner ran the last 1.1 miles 30-60 seconds slower than last year, and that final 1K portion of the course was altered. This same change was made at the Foundation Invite this year. Why is this important? Because HS seniors lost their junior track season and there are no regional/national races this year, so XC becomes more important. Elite schools still have minimal scholarship money and they want to be certain that the kid is the real deal. Without track times from last year XC is so much more important. They don’t want 9:20 3200M runners or state XC champions who ran 16:30 in the small school did vision of a low caliber state. But if a runner can say he is the state XC record holder, or all time fastest list from a state like PA-that’s a resume builder (and something to take pride in). It might catch the attention of a high profile school out west who otherwise knows nothing about Pennsylvania. People say XC times don’t matter, but the first thing on every college questionnaire is: 5K XC PR. Try telling a top 20 XC program that you’d like to walk on and you finished 7th in the state in XC and ran 9:19 in high school (doesn’t matter if it was run in 30 mile wind and hail storm, or you would have been 10 seconds faster......) The coaches comment will be “that’s great, the school has a fun club team you’d enjoy.” -most top schools want a minimum of 9:15 (for walk ons) or a nationally recognized XC performance. An all-time top 5 record at your state meet, that might get their attention and make up for a lack of track times from last year’s missed season. The course was clearly longer than the last 2 years—or maybe it was short last year??? But the last 1K of the race was not the exact same as last year. There are multiple kids in PA who have run or could run sub 15 on the track, but only 3 kids could break 16:20 in 73 degrees and perfect course conditions this year. To 17 minute runners and ‘everybody gets a trophy’ parents records, times and accurate course measurements don’t matter. But to elite competitors and metrics driven coaches records and all-time lists matter. Otherwise we wouldn’t keep them.

Craig Miller held the state course record and it’s since been broken. But does that mean anyone who runs a new course record is going to have aS good or better if a career? No. Winning is most important in XC.

Thank you for the reply. Just compared the speed ratings from last year to this year and you are correct that they are 15-20 seconds slower. I think they added about 50 meters just before the final hill (maybe it was short last year!). My disappointment is that the course is not identical every year.

I haven't found it as the first thing on any questionnaires.

so many short course wrote:

Good for them, seems like lately the goal is to have the shortest course possible, its XC who cares about the time or even the exact distance...

Clearly you care considering how upset you are about them trying to make it a 5k

I’ve run Hershey and that course is not long, just brutal.

Semi-watered down competition in terms of teams, a long course, 75 degree weather? The state meet was a mess this year, feel bad for the kids whose last year was this.

Old is as old does wrote:

I am a coach in PA, I have made 12 consecutive trips to States and have run the course myself several times. The course is 5000m. the only change to the course this year was purely cosmetic to keep spectators off the course.

If times were slow it was from the small race format and the warm temps 70+

If you ran and used GPS, You should know that GPS is terribly inaccurate. And if you were an athlete using GPS you should have been DQ’d. Wearing a watch is legal, but using GPS is not. I am a certified PIAA official as well as a coach.

Based on downloads from PIAA meet runners posted on Strava I would guess that 15-20% of all runners used a GPS watch on Saturday. GPS is not dead accurate, but today’s watches are pretty close-especially in clear conditions and open space courses (like we had Saturday). I find that Strava GPS posts from most 5K XC races come in short, usually 3.05 to 3.08. The average Strava GPS distance that I sampled from the PIAA meet was 3.19 miles. The shortest recoded distance was 3.17 and the longest was 3.22. Based on the slow times (at both Foundation Invite and PIAA) and the average GPS reading I’d say the course was definitely not certified at 3.1 miles this year, and was most likely closer to 3.2 miles.

We had a 2 loop race around a soccer complex this year where most GPS readings were 3.15 so we wheeled the course. It was 3.11. There was absolutely no reason that the readings should have been off but they were. GPS is very good if running a point to point course but it never seems correct if doing a circle unless it is 20 miles.

Actually based on what you are saying about the GPS readings, I would conclude that the course was most likely accurate. A course that is 5000m will consistently see readings of 3.15-3.2 on GPS watches. Almost all of them will read longer than the actual distance.

And based on what a couple of others said, it sounds like the course may have been short in the past and was lengthened to make it the correct 5000m distance.

I have coached athletes who have competed in Hershey at the PIAA Foundation Meet and at the State Finals for nearly every year the past 10 years, including 2 days ago at PA States. The course was altered this year for the PIAA Foundation Invitational meet in September (where times were very slow as well compared to previous years) and a loop was added made the course longer than 5k and longer than Hershey's course in years prior to this one. This same revised Foundation course was used for States on Saturday. It was not the same course as in any previous years, so stop with the "it's always been a slow course but it's a 5K" stuff.

Agreed that it is not typically a fast course at all but for those claiming it was accurate, just a tough course, I strongly disagree. It was 55 degrees and gorgeous for the start of the first races of the day, single "A" girls. The state champ on Saturday for girls "A", Carmen Medvit, ran 20:16. Her best 5K is 18:54. She didn't run poorly, she won the state final ! There was no heat to slow her down, it was quite frankly the best weather for a states race I've ever seen in PA and I've been to almost every one for over 30 years. The course was simply long and it was all added over the last 3rd of the race. As another poster above stated, times for the first 2 miles were about in line with previous years, but the remainder of the race was 45 seconds to a minute slower for nearly all runners. That's where the loop was added. It's easy to understand if you think about it. And it's not a big deal. It's XC - courses will have somewhat different lengths and difficulties - the length and condition of the course were not negative factors in determining who the best runners in PA are - the best runners were again at the top of the finishers list, as they always are.

I’ve been there the last 4 years and this guy is correct. Course is definitely long this year.

My girl ran 30 seconds slower with much better footing, while being about a minute better in all other courses this year, than she did at the state meet two years ago when the course was supposedly the same as this years. Last year they cut off a loop because of flooding and adjusted the course accordingly and it looks like this year they added that loop back without adjusting the other parts of the course and it ended up adding .1-.15 miles.

Wait, the OP said that the course was .15 long merely because of GOS watch readings?! Smh

I don’t know if this adds anything to this discussion, but Marlee Starliper who ran the Hershey course 6 times and holds the overall state meet record and the Hershey course record says it is the hardest course she ran in her high school career. Keep in mind she ran the NXN course, FL Regional course in NY 4 times (which she has the second fastest Time all time at 17:03), and FL Nationals course 3 times (4th fastest time all time at 16:45). She set the state meet and Hershey course record last year in 17:10.

So a few thoughts.......first PA runners nationally never get the recognition they deserve because they run their state meet on one of the hardest if not the hardest state course in the country in usually terrible course conditions on a very rough and hilly course. The times are never good nationally because of the brutality of the course. I don’t know if the course was long or not, but I hope it was not for the kids sake..... the course itself is hard enough. And although CC times are ultimately irrelevant because Every course is different. I agree that kids need to be able to tell if they have approved on that course, and I know for a fact colleges ask for info on CC 5k PR times.

Perfect example of how PA runners (excluding Starliper of course, they cannot look away from her accomplishments) are looked over because they do not have fast times because most PA courses are hilly and bad footing. Take Gionna Quarzo who was third at states last year behind Starliper and Parks.....she is not even talked about when it comes to NC State recruits. They talk about the Fab five ( which they have been called), Tuohy, Starliper, Waters, Shultz, and Hendricks, and don’t even talk about Quarzo, why? Because she ran behind PA’ greatest in Starliper, had an unimpressive time because it was on a slow brutal state course..... not fair! This fall at NC State she made the ACC team and outperformed Waters and Hendrix and was a second behind Schultz.....because she is PA tough! Very underrated because she ran in PA which does not produce fast times due to the courses. You watch FL Nationals and watch all these national runners die on the hill at Footlocker because they are use to running all the easy courses across the nation..... just imagine if Nationals was in Hershey PA, you would really see kids die!

Saying all that, it would be better if PA states was at LeHigh so the kids would get more noticed by colleges and nationally, because the course has good footing and mostly flat.

Every race was run on the same course so who cares what your GPS says regarding precision. You all want to complain about the kids when they complain but I see much worse from the adults regarding their displeasure with course construction and accuracy. The kids, the ones who actually have to run the course, usually just go with it no complaints.

Sort of off topic but it seems like the PIAA State meet always has some sort of weather that makes a tough course that much tougher. If it's not unseasonable hot day for early November it's the course is water logged because it rained all week and is on a former bog. Last two years they had to alter the course due to flooding.

Runner10287 wrote:

Every race was run on the same course so who cares what your GPS says regarding precision. You all want to complain about the kids when they complain but I see much worse from the adults regarding their displeasure with course construction and accuracy. The kids, the ones who actually have to run the course, usually just go with it no complaints.

Sort of off topic but it seems like the PIAA State meet always has some sort of weather that makes a tough course that much tougher. If it's not unseasonable hot day for early November it's the course is water logged because it rained all week and is on a former bog. Last two years they had to alter the course due to flooding.

I agree with this. It is a tough and slow course even in good conditions, and in recent years, the weather has not been helpful. My son ran two years ago and it was a mudfest. Across all classifications, not a single boy got under 16:00, and only 6 broke 16:30. Starliper, however, did manage to run 17:53, which is a testimony to just how good she really is.

No one cares about having an exact distance in XC.

All XC times are garbage anyways and vary so much from course to course, especially on a legendary route like Hershey's.

It's about who you beat. That's what colleges look at for XC.

If an extra 250 M affected your runners that much, they didn't deserve to win anyways.

The Paul Short / PA Districts course is short anyways, and no one complains about that (aside form some college athletes that never race there).

Juice Springsteen wrote:

Craig Miller held the state course record and it’s since been broken. But does that mean anyone who runs a new course record is going to have aS good or better if a career? No. Winning is most important in XC.

I have seen references to the history of the Hershey course a few times and wanted to add that this is the newest version of the course. Miller ran across the street at the old Hershey course. It moved to the Foundation venue in 06 and they changed the course they used that year a year or two later I believe. Not sure if they changed that version any times between now and 08-09 area .

So the history argument doesn't really hold up and it shouldn't considering how much the weather will affect times especially on a course like the Hershey one that is prone to flooding and what not.

Eh. This logic doesn't hold up in practice. If you really care about times that much, you have Lehigh (which is a little short, but way fast). But coaches look at track times, too. We just haven't had comparatively great runners overall. That's not a byproduct of times on a course people run once (or twice) a year.

Fact.

If college coaches ask for that, your runners should reconsider going to those schools. The best programs in the nation (BYU, NAU, etc.) have no interest in XC times. They look at who you beat in XC, mixed with track times.

Most already race there. Hershey isn't about fast times. It's a big boy race. The champ deserves to be champ.