1:16 HM but can't break 3 hour marathon

Biggest difference between race day and a regular long run is likely that on race day... you do a warm-up. So what is your warm-up routine the day of the race? How long before the start are you finishing your warm-up, do you take in any nutrition or fluids after your warm-up, what kind of stretching are you doing?

I did a bunch of things to get past my cramping, but the most important was probably to stop doing static stretching as part of my warmup. I realized that it wasn't even that conscious of a decision, I'd just stretch my calves on a curb, sit on the grass and stretch my hammies while watching others warmup, or grab a leg and stretch my quads at the start line. All out of nerves really, and just killing time until the start. Static stretching introduces small muscle tears ahead of a workout and can introduce risk of early fatigue, injury....and cramps. When I became more intentional about my entire warm-up routine - timing my warmup, doing dynamic stretches, intentional nutrition - I didn't get the muscle cramps.

Other things that I have done over the years that have helped as well: strength training (lunges, squats), core and glute work (Jay Johnson on youtube), running my training runs slower, doing some longer tempo work in my race flats, taking gels earlier in my race, and focus on hydrating well for the entire week ahead of the race. Good luck!

Have you tried "HotShot" for cramp prevention?

https://teamhotshot.com/

You've got to be kidding.

Go run that 1:16 half and jog another one immediately. There, you have your sub-3 marathon. Your pace only needs to be slightly faster than 8 minutes per mile. Perhaps you would want to go easier for 5-10 minutes after your best effort half, but you'd recover and make up for that. Just an easy run.

Strength Training has already been mentioned but I'll add my experience. I was able to fix marathon cramping (quads, calves) by doing strength and mobility exercises to correct muscle imbalances and improve hip drive/extension. After 2 marathons with serious cramping issues, I added consistent strength training to my routine with a focus on my hamstrings and glutes. No heavy weights or anything, just 30ish minutes 2-3 times a week. Haven't had issues since.

owl man wrote:

Juice Springsteen wrote:

Hydration and nutrition and maybe pain tolerance

i used to struggle with cramping, in my opinion hydration/electrolytes did nothing for me. Strength training fixed it, haven't cramped in ~4 years.

I used to cramp (always the calves) in the last, critical part of the marathon. Hydration and electrolyte BS never did a thing. Improved training and more mileage fixed that problem.

slom wo wrote:

Strength Training has already been mentioned but I'll add my experience. I was able to fix marathon cramping (quads, calves) by doing strength and mobility exercises to correct muscle imbalances and improve hip drive/extension. After 2 marathons with serious cramping issues, I added consistent strength training to my routine with a focus on my hamstrings and glutes. No heavy weights or anything, just 30ish minutes 2-3 times a week. Haven't had issues since.

Have you an example of a 30min session you did? Thanks.

HITHEREYOU wrote:

Have you an example of a 30min session you did? Thanks.

Sure thing. Like I said, I typically performed 2-3 sessions/week and varied the specific exercises. An example session could be:

Perform as a circuit, Go through 3 times with a few minutes rest between circuits.

Hamstring Ball Curls: 15 reps

Split Jump Squat: 10 reps

Clamshells: 15 reps

Single Leg Glute Bridge: 12 reps

Planks: 90 seconds

Scorpion Stretch

I'm not a personal trainer or anything so hopefully others chime in with more info. I basically tried to do about 5 movements per session and just randomly picked with movements to include. I did some internet research to determine exercises that would be beneficial to runners and then rotated through ones I found. Not particularly scientific.

Flagpole wrote:

nottom osler wrote:

You're not running enough mileage. Full stop. Lay off the speed work. Boost the mileage. Seriously, boost it. Get up to 80-90ish for 8 weeks before you taper. Read Tom Osler. Then go run more.

THIS^

That`s not the problem! He can even run less 50-55 mpw and still run 2:37 at marathon

if capable to run 1:16 half. I would say the problem is two-sided. It`s quite obvious he is doing his training wrong. Need to do the few mainly important factors and at individual right pace . The other side that he gets cramps is probably that he have to run that extra 30 min in his marathon races. I`m sure he won`t have any cramps if just have to run 2:37 or faster at the marathon.

- Just Magic! - :)

The Wizard JS wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

THIS^

That`s not the problem! He can even run less 50-55 mpw and still run 2:37 at marathon

if capable to run 1:16 half. I would say the problem is two-sided. It`s quite obvious he is doing his training wrong. Need to do the few mainly important factors and at individual right pace . The other side that he gets cramps is probably that he have to run that extra 30 min in his marathon races. I`m sure he won`t have any cramps if just have to run 2:37 or faster at the marathon.

- Just Magic! - :)

Just retarded!

slom wo wrote:

HITHEREYOU wrote:

Have you an example of a 30min session you did? Thanks.

Sure thing. Like I said, I typically performed 2-3 sessions/week and varied the specific exercises. An example session could be:

Perform as a circuit, Go through 3 times with a few minutes rest between circuits.

Hamstring Ball Curls: 15 reps

Split Jump Squat: 10 reps

Clamshells: 15 reps

Single Leg Glute Bridge: 12 reps

Planks: 90 seconds

Scorpion Stretch

I'm not a personal trainer or anything so hopefully others chime in with more info. I basically tried to do about 5 movements per session and just randomly picked with movements to include. I did some internet research to determine exercises that would be beneficial to runners and then rotated through ones I found. Not particularly scientific.

slom wo, thanks that's excellent.

Kenaneeser Beckelay wrote:

The Wizard JS wrote:

That`s not the problem! He can even run less 50-55 mpw and still run 2:37 at marathon

if capable to run 1:16 half. I would say the problem is two-sided. It`s quite obvious he is doing his training wrong. Need to do the few mainly important factors and at individual right pace . The other side that he gets cramps is probably that he have to run that extra 30 min in his marathon races. I`m sure he won`t have any cramps if just have to run 2:37 or faster at the marathon.

- Just Magic! - :)

Just retarded!

Ahh of course, so that's why I got cramps! I should have just ran 40s a mile quicker and finished quicker. Genius.

David Brent wrote:

60+ miles per week, long runs up to 22.5 miles with plenty of goal pace mixed in, weekly threshold work in low 6:00s. 3 hour pace feels so easy aerobically, but I keep getting destroyed by cramps in the last couple miles. What am I doing wrong?

Running the wrong event.

You're a speedster.

I was breaking 3 with a 1:25 half.

In my 50s.

For everyone arguing that I need to train harder (e.g. run more mileage), how do you explain all those who manage sub 3 on 40-50 mpw, particularly those who do so with slower HM PRs than myself? Do you believe they have some incredible genetic advantage over me? Does my HM time not indicate sufficient aerobic capacity?

Thanks everyone for the feedback, btw.

Haile had calories every 3 miles during his WR marathon. Aliphine had 8 gels + gatorade during the Olympic Trials.

Not saying that was definitely the cause, but I think a lot of people underdo on calories during the marathon.

Another thing to look at is if you’re not losing too much salt through sweat. You might need to take some electrolyte pills with you if that’s the case.

I don’t think it’s the mileage. 60mpw should be enough with your PR. I had a 1:15 HM and ran 40mpw when I ran 2:50 (on a 10min positive split) for the full.