1:16 HM but can't break 3 hour marathon

Something really doesn't add up. While your training could always improve, in 1:16 shape you ought to be able to jog a sub-3 while hung over.

Not a teetotaler but wrote:

Something really doesn't add up. While your training could always improve, in 1:16 shape you ought to be able to jog a sub-3 while hung over.

The OP clearly said it was due to cramping. Something is causing his legs to crap up at the longer races, and he is asking why.

I'm a fair bit slower than the OP but also suffer from the same cramping on every marathon IV run (4). I personally think it's a strength/form issue as I have aweful running form. With too much force being put on particular muscles for too long causing them to fail (cramp) after x time.

I'm a salty sweater too, so it could be that but I hydrated well and took plenty of sodium enriched gels to no effect.

Saying all this, just running more probably would help.

As others have said, nutrition and/or mileage.

With 60s & getting in 20 milers you should be in the mid to high 2:40s or somewhere in the 2:50s are the very least. On 80-100+ miles, maybe you find your potential & go 2:39-2:45 range.

Nutrition shouldn't be downplayed. The pros certainly take it seriously. Kipchoge knows exactly what's going into his body every 5km. We should be copying that. Drink something like Maurten every 5k & pop 2-3 gels & with good pacing cramping shouldn't be an issue. If you're saying you can't eat/drink that much you need to learn how to. Practice it.

It's not a training thing to go sub-3. Sub-2:50, maybe. More likely to break 2:45 you'd have to start adding.

I’ve run 1:18 and 2:46 on 50-60 mpw

How do you pace? If your goal is sub 3 I would suggest going out rate at that pace and waiting until half way to progress a little faster. 6:50 will feel like your holding back a lot the first half but that’s the point. A marathon doesn’t start until around miles 16-20 anyway.

Also, I would take about 4 gels overall but with just water early on. Then later in the run add the electrolyte drink like gatorade.

Another thing is to do strength training like lunges and squat jumps. Your legs take a different type of beating in a thon because of the muscle damage caused by glycogen depletion. Doing some extra strength can certainly help with that.

With a 76min HM you should be looking at 2:45 so something is wrong. It could be lack of mileage but 60 miles is enough for most people to go sub-3 if they can run a sub-80 HM. The cramps suggest a lack of conditioning so:

1. How long is your build-up? Three months is standard but if you're not an experienced marathoner then four months could help.

2. How many runs over 20 miles or over 2h15m are you doing? I like to do 8 over a build up, most programmes have 6. These build resilience. I'd also recommend one run of 24 miles at an easy pace 6 weeks out. That should have you on your feet for 3 hours but at an easily manageable pace

Thanks everyone for contributing your ideas. I have a hard time seeing it as a training deficit--I train with some other sub 3 marathoners who run comparable or lower weekly mileage and can't break 1:23 in a HM.

To answer a few of the questions I'm seeing...

I was very careful about pacing yesterday just hoping to break 3 hr--averaged 6:50s for the first 20 miles (6:37, fastest to 7:02, slowest) which frankly does feel like jogging.

My buildup was essentially since March. Had a 6-day break in July and a 4-day break in early September due to wildfire smoke.

I did not sweat a ton yesterday.--it was cool. Perhaps I am losing too much salt in my sweat, but I am definitely NOT an especially sweaty runner.

I have a half PR of 1:13:13 from when I was much younger (late 30s now), which I ran on 70-80 mpw. Although my weekly mileage is a bit lower now, I'm doing a lot more long runs--I had three consecutive weeks of 20+ mile long runs in my recent buildup and have done 8 or 9 total since May. Cramping has occasionally been an issue during long runs--always cured by a brief stop to stretch.

Strength training is inconsistent and certainly an area for improvement as far as reaching my potential, but I'd like to think there is a simpler nutritional/hydration answer that will at least allow me to get into the 2:50s and/or run the distance without debilitating muscle cramps.

Thanks again.

This is not a nutrition problem. If you're getting 400-500 calories during the race and you're carboloaded going in, you will not bonk. If it were a hydration or a salt issue, you would know it.

It's just a leg strength issue. You need more total miles, more long runs, and more downhills. I always recommend hard downhill running for people whose legs fall apart late in a marathon. It doesn't take much. One downhill session per week for 4 weeks is plenty to protect your legs, assuming the rest of the miles are there.

Overtraining.

Need to examine your hydration and nutrition, including day of the marathon and night before.

Also, 22.5 mile long runs and 60 mpw means your long runs are too much relative to your weekly mileage. There's a quote from Frank Shorter "a long run should be 2 hours or 20 miles, whichever happens first". So I'd say you're running too long on your long run and not enough on the other days of the week. Currently you're doing 37.5 miles the other 6 days of the week or 6.25 miles per day.

Try to increase your weekly mileage. For marathon, weekly mileage is more important than long run. If you have 2 equally talented runners and one does 60 mpw with 22 mile long runs and one does 80 mpw with 16 mile long runs, who do you think is going to beat who in a marathon? The 2nd runner.

Do you know that you need all those gels? I know I'm on the end of the spectrum of needing pretty minimal nutrition In the three marathons I've done (2:36, 2:52 trail, and 2:50), I've had 2, 1 and 0 gels, respectively. But I know thatI'm a bit of a camel and my body can get by just fine on minimal liquids and/or gels for longer efforts.

Have you ever truly bonked in a longer training run to see that you really do need all that nutrition?

I agree with you that you should be able to run well under 3 with that recent half time, mpw, and long run.

It's been all downhill since Lennon died wrote:

Do you know that you need all those gels? I know I'm on the end of the spectrum of needing pretty minimal nutrition In the three marathons I've done (2:36, 2:52 trail, and 2:50), I've had 2, 1 and 0 gels, respectively. But I know thatI'm a bit of a camel and my body can get by just fine on minimal liquids and/or gels for longer efforts.

Have you ever truly bonked in a longer training run to see that you really do need all that nutrition?

I agree with you that you should be able to run well under 3 with that recent half time, mpw, and long run.

I might not need that much. I only have two gels and 20 oz. on 20 mile runs (so, half). I can't imagine the cramps are coming from taking in TOO MUCH, though, right?

I don't think eating pizza the AM of a race is a good idea. Eat the carbs the evening before. In the AM, something light like yogurt. Good hydration begins several weeks prior to a marathon.

David Brent wrote:

I did not drink any water

Everyone just overlooking this?

Drink some water /thread

Free_the_thigh wrote:

David Brent wrote:

I did not drink any water

Everyone just overlooking this?

Drink some water /thread

Just to clarify, you did see that I drank 40 oz. of GU roctane hydration mix, right?

Juice Springsteen wrote:

Hydration and nutrition and maybe pain tolerance

i used to struggle with cramping, in my opinion hydration/electrolytes did nothing for me. Strength training fixed it, haven't cramped in ~4 years.

owl man wrote:

Juice Springsteen wrote:

Hydration and nutrition and maybe pain tolerance

i used to struggle with cramping, in my opinion hydration/electrolytes did nothing for me. Strength training fixed it, haven't cramped in ~4 years.

What were your go-to strength routines?

I was a 1:20 1/2 and 2:53 marathon guy back in the day off 40MPW. You should be able to break 3 in your sleep off of 60mpw.

That said, it can be hard to put together a good 26.2 on any given day. It’s also largely mental, and making sure you eat enough prior to the race. I do the lower carbs for 3 days race week and then load up the day before the race.

My race weight was also only 148 at 6ft, so that probably helps.

I would not increase mileage if sub 3 is your goal. Good diet, pick a good course, and get rest race week. Also, go out slow first half. You should be able to bring it home in 1:25-1:28 no problem.

It's simple - run your easy runs easy.

The only reason someone can't convert a 1hr16 to a sub-3 is because they're achieving the 1/2 with high levels of Anaerobic glycolysis (which can fuel up to an hour of that 1hr16).

So go back down to say 9min/miling and work up from there - week-by-week.

You'll probably decrease your mileage initially but that's ok. A sub-3 hr marathon only needs 5-6 hrs per week. (Strava stats from 2016 London marathon). You have all the speed necessary just lack the endurance.

First of all forget the 3 hours pace, is too slow for you!!!! First goal should be around 6'30 /mile pace or 4'/km pace thats about 25 seconds /km slower than your half marathon pace.

So I would work on the long run max 38km at an easy pace about 4'30/km or any pace that is "easy " for you , and yes you can stay on your legs about 3 hours thats should be your goal (forget race pace in this long run) your goal is to complete these long runs with no cramps or any other problem, just teach your body to run for 3 hours.Your marathon will be 12 minutes shorter (4'/km)than your max long run (3 hours)

At the same time you will work on race pace 4'/km. From 10 miles up to 20 miles , if 20 miles are hard at 4'/km you will slow a little bit, Or if the pace is too easy you will go faster , but it should be confortable , a little hard in the end of the 20 miles of course.

So LONG RUN easy/moderate to teach your body to run a marathon

TEMPO RUN at race pace , increasing the distance over the weeks . Max 30km

Lactic Threshold around 6'/mile workouts would be of course the other important thing

Please do a favor to yourself,dont try to do more miles/week. With 1:16 in the half and 60/miles per week , if someone says that the reason why you dont break 3 hours is because you are running few miles he is totally wrong. And also what is the point to run 100 miles to break 3hours ???? Is an absolutely nonsense . Than if you want to run a marathon to 3'50/km pace so in 2:42 /2:45 than more mileage would be the main choice but not the only one