Is it Normal to Train this Fast? (Tinman Workout)

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

ExcelHSCoach wrote:

These paces don't happen in a vacuum and every pace has some combination of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism for example 3k pace is like 80% aerobic and 20% anaerobic.

Mentally this will also prep someone to increase the effort as the workout goes on which is what you need to do in a race to maintain a given pace.

you shouldn't look at a workout in isolation.

this point resounds very much with me here and what I see in this thread and on letsrun in general.

It can be an effective workout in a larger scope that we aren't given. A lot of people just really hate tinman and will twist facts to validate there theory that he is a bad coach.

Also I'd add that each rep in a workout isn't done in a vacuum. The workout as a whole is the stimulus. That's not to say that this Tinman workout is a particularly good one, although who's to say it was supposed to be a super hard workout.

Mikeh33 wrote:

Amazing that those sorts of splits, only one is really hard. I guess that’s what makes them so good.

they're not good

Give us a real one wrote:

stand off wrote:

I don't know why you clowns are melting down over the "alleged controversial" statement. The adaptations your body makes from a workout are directly related to the magnitude and the specificity of the stimulus. That's exercise phys 101. Hell, that's biology 101.

In this workout, the athletes use a different fuel source every couple reps. First 2 reps are purely using fat for energy. then for the next 2 it's aerobic at the lactate threshold. then at the end it's purely anaerobic using the glycolytic energy system.

Not a big stimulus for any of the 3 energy systems being used, and since there are so many different stimuli the body's response to each will be smaller. In conclusion - a foolish workout.

I see you don`t know so much about running physiology. First comes use of glycogen and then fat.

WRONG. Fat is used at the lower intensities.

Alex Bones wrote:

Also I'd add that each rep in a workout isn't done in a vacuum. The workout as a whole is the stimulus. That's not to say that this Tinman workout is a particularly good one, although who's to say it was supposed to be a super hard workout.

I love the statement people make about how a workout isn’t enough for a stimulus. I mean walking up the stairs is a stimulus.

WRONG. The glycolytic energy sytem, BY DEFINITION, does not use oxygen at all.

You are WRONG. The first two reps of his workout, based on % of VO2 max, fall into the aerobic threshold range where fatty acids are the primary substrate.

stand off wrote:

You are WRONG. The first two reps of his workout, based on % of VO2 max, fall into the aerobic threshold range where fatty acids are the primary substrate.

Yep I am wrong. People run at HM and MP purely using fat for energy like you suggest. Nobody has ever suffered glycogen depletion in a marathon because they are only using fat for energy.....

former elite runner wrote:

No it is not normal to run that EASY. They need to be running real workouts.

5 x 1200 at 3k pace might be good.

Here are a couple examples of standard elite runner workouts. They are moderately difficult.

First a short one:

https://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2020/10/8/5x800m

Next a slightly longer one (key workout for any serious marathon or half marathoner):

https://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2020/9/29/2x1hour

everyone knows that marathon workout is ridiculous and not possible. you might as well just race a marathon since it's the same if not easier of a workout. Johnathan Marcus takes his workouts a bit to extremes. But yes there is a time and place for hard workouts.

My goodness you wanna be PhD honks are embarrassing. Taking an elementary school level of knowledge and espousing training theories off of it.

stand off wrote:

You are WRONG. The first two reps of his workout, based on % of VO2 max, fall into the aerobic threshold range where fatty acids are the primary substrate.

Lol, no. Their RER at those paces is at least .9.

stand off wrote:

In this workout, the athletes use a different fuel source every couple reps. First 2 reps are purely using fat for energy. then for the next 2 it's aerobic at the lactate threshold. then at the end it's purely anaerobic using the glycolytic energy system.

......

You are WRONG. The first two reps of his workout, based on % of VO2 max, fall into the aerobic threshold range where fatty acids are the primary substrate.

You know nothing of exercise physiology. The first rep uses fat and the next two use aerobic? Didn't realize aerobic was a fuel source and using fat wasn't aerobic... I mean seriously. You're mistaken and need to be clearer with your words. Carbs and fat are the fuel sources, aerobic and glycolytic are ATP generation pathways. Glycolytic is by definition anaerobic? For fast glycolysis, yes, but not for slow glycolysis. Regardless, the last rep isn't even close to using purely anaerobic energy.

If you listened to the video, the last rep was supposed to be at 2k-3k race effort. The contribution from the glycolytic system is less than 20% of the total energy demands for that pace. The fast glycolytic system is really good for up to 1 minute at max effort, and a bit longer with a more controlled effort (~2 minutes), but beyond that aerobic energy sources are dominant.

Even if the first rep was at marathon pace, the primary fuel source would still be carbohydrates. For most easy runs, about half of the calories still come from carbs. Jogging uses more calories from fat than carbs, but if they're jogging in between reps and using fat for fuel, they must be wasting their time, right? Nonsense.

xcvt wrote:

everyone knows that marathon workout is ridiculous and not possible. you might as well just race a marathon since it's the same if not easier of a workout. Johnathan Marcus takes his workouts a bit to extremes. But yes there is a time and place for hard workouts.

It's crazy to write a workout like that without saying what paces it's for. Obviously it's not a crazy workout for a slow runner. If your half marathon PR is over 2 hours, then you're basically just taking a little break in the middle of a race effort. But if you're a 65 minute guy....

stand off wrote:

Give us a real one wrote:

I see you don`t know so much about running physiology. First comes use of glycogen and then fat.

WRONG. Fat is used at the lower intensities.

Youv'e got to study basic physiology! Fat is the energy source in reserve. Why do you think fat people have so much difficulty to lose weight? Glycogen is the first energy source , but it will be burned faster the faster you run.

You are foolish. the reason athletes train at the aerobic threshold is to use fatty acids and enhance the body’s ability to mobilize and use fatty acids, conserving glycogen for use at faster paces and other sessions.

I simplified by saying aerobic because the troglodytes here won't know what oxidative phosphorylation is.

the 200s at the end are using purely anaerobic, which is what i said.

xcvt wrote:

everyone knows that marathon workout is ridiculous and not possible. you might as well just race a marathon since it's the same if not easier of a workout. Johnathan Marcus takes his workouts a bit to extremes. But yes there is a time and place for hard workouts.

All the workouts on that site are a joke. They are designed to impress people who have never run before. The range from almost impossible to impossible for just about anyone (well other than maybe the 6 hour marathoner who races slower than their training pace).

Reminds me of some Frank Horwill workouts that were just absurd but he supposedly had at least coached some athletes. I seem to remember one saying though he cut all the workouts in half though:)

stand off wrote:

You are foolish. the reason athletes train at the aerobic threshold is to use fatty acids and enhance the body’s ability to mobilize and use fatty acids, conserving glycogen for use at faster paces and other sessions.

I simplified by saying aerobic because the troglodytes here won't know what oxidative phosphorylation is.

the 200s at the end are using purely anaerobic, which is what i said.

In the context of this discussion, aerobic threshold is irrelevant. They're not training their aerobic threshold. They ran 1 rep of 1200m at a slow pace, which many of us seem to agree was more of an extended warm-up than the focus of the workout. They're obviously not training to enhance their fat burning abilities.

For the first rep, they were running at about 80% of Vo2max. You're saying that at 80% of Vo2max, fat is the PRIMARY fuel source? I guess all of the textbooks are wrong and you hold information that is better and far more complicated than the "troglodytes" here could hope to understand. Fat becomes a greater contributor to the energy demands as the duration of the run increases, but this is far too short and they're not running (jogging) slow enough to elicit a response that trains fat burning. This isn't a long run, it's a relatively short workout.

The 200s at ~800m race effort do primarily serve to elevate the fast glycolytic system and anaerobic capacity, but calling them purely anaerobic is just completely false.

Do we need a Zoom call and I'll walk you through the process of unsubscribing from the channel. Hopefully Trump wins and we don't have to suffer with Biden shoving media you distaste down that pretty little throat of yours.

Most of the studies I've seen say FatMax occurs at like 45% of VO2 Max so not really fast running at all. Evan at FatMax some carbs are getting burned with oxygen. Not sure what elite marathoners or ultra runners might look like in such a test.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304666715_Correlation_Between_Aerobic_Threshold_And_Point_Of_Maximal_Fat_Utilization_In_Male_Runners