Can you die from pushing yourself too hard?

I don't think you can die from pushing yourself too hard, but I hear you can go blind from pulling yourself too hard.

No

deadboi wrote:

Let’s say you’re completely healthy. Can you kill you self by simply pushing yourself too hard in a race, and by bypassing your mind/body’s attempt tell you to stop?

I’m talking 5-10k - at this distance I’ve noticed that I can remain nearly anaerobic, and extremely uncomfortable for the whole race, compared to a marathon where it’s tough to maintain that sense of “imminent death” for the whole race.

I’m not talking about a max effort. I’m talking max HR, oxygen deficit, overriding your body’s pleading to slow down.

Dangerous over 5-10k?

Interesting topic. A lot of chatter that there were substances introduced on the circuit a few years ago that did exactly this - that could override the bodies self defense/shut-down mechanism and allow it technically to push into zones in races it shouldn't. Example: a famous 400m runner won a world title, seemed fine when they crossed the line and minutes later had to be stretchered off the track when the physical reality of their exertion appeared to hit their system. Was actually a common situation that season - was also the same season Dibaba ran 3min50.07 which clearly now is a mark of comical proportions.

Read "endure" by alex Hutchinson. Talks about this question at length and gives example of both people pushing themselves to death and also how your body normally prevents it

ultrawalker wrote:

david 45 wrote:

what if I was anemic?

Eat 500g of high fat content red meat everyday for two weeks and your anemia will be no more.

New around here?

fisky wrote:

I've done Fitzgerald's techniques to overcome this governor and I believe that it works... 4 age group WRs in the past two and a half years.

Are you Earl Fee?

fisky wrote:

I've done Fitzgerald's techniques to overcome this governor and I believe that it works... 4 age group WRs in the past two and a half years.

What world records have you broken?

So coincidental. I ran a super hard 5K the other day and felt terribly the night after and the next day as well. Peed blood and super short of breath. Went down the rabbit hole of reading about Cardiomyopathy, athletes heart, congestive heart failure, kemoy Campbell/Ryan shay, etc.

I ran a few 800s in high school to the point where my vision started closing in. That’s oxygen deprivation, but I still imagine the worst that would happen would be to run until you pass out, and which point your conscious overriding of your central governor is forcibly shut off, your oxygen demands drop, and you wake up with a nasty bump on your head from the fall.

Running in the heat, now that could be an entirely different proposition. Definitely folks have run themselves into some dire straights due to heat exhaustion/stroke, but I think we’re trying to pull environmental factors out and just talk about making your body go until it breaks under “ideal” conditions.

Someone mentioned dehydration. I’d like to point out that literally no one has ever died of dehydration in the recorded history of competitive running (seriously, try and find a case), but several people annually die of hyponatremia ... so you CAN die by continuing to drink even when you aren’t thirsty, which is a bit of an interesting flip on the “pushing it too far” concept.

Heat and dehydration are secondary killers. I’m talking about pure effort alone, as if everything else was perfect. Many of the anecdotes shared in this thread were due to secondary causes - Salazar and heat, etc...

It’s an impossible question, really, but it’s fascinating to me, to potentially override the primal controls that you were born with. To tap into something beyond “you”. Which makes me wonder if meditation can aid in achieving this flirtation with death... To consciously eliminate the prebuilt safety net embedded deep within your brain - now that is awesome stuff.

I have no doubt that this “skill” is what separates the true greats from the rest of the best. That “skill” goes beyond just overriding your natural governor - it’s going far enough past it to unlock your full potential, but not quite far enough to kill yourself. Whoever can get the closest to that end state without dying....that person will be untouchable.

deadboi wrote:

AverageJoesGym262 wrote:

Ask Alberto Salazar about his race Falmouth in 1978.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/more-sports/2007/10/31/salazar1105

Yeah I thought about that, but effort alone didn’t cause that to happen. If he ran that same effort in cooler temps he’d have been completely fine imo.

But virtually any kind of death is a matter of complications of other factors. If you take that away I would say the answer to the OP question is that it is cleary impossible. Because the weather is fine and the runner is in perfect health, so pushed to the limits the runner at worst just collapses having no energy left.

Maybe he had Covid-19

Chris Everett wrote:

fisky wrote:

I've done Fitzgerald's techniques to overcome this governor and I believe that it works... 4 age group WRs in the past two and a half years.

What world records have you broken?

That's what I want to know too. Fisky what world records have you broken?

This is more important than the OP's stupid question. Yes of course you can die from hyperthermia and hypothermia, but there is nothing heroic about it. Nor is it true that the best athletes push beyond the limits. It's a ridiculous idea.

Most importantly, the poster fisky is saying he has 4 age group world records. This is the claim on this thread that needs to be substantiated.

fisky wrote:

OP, short answer no.

Slightly longer answer: Your body has "governors" that shut the body's efforts down before they can do harm.

Detailed answer: Read Brain Training for Runners (2007) bu Matt Fitzgerald. This gist is that your brain has a complex governor that prevents you from running yourself to death. The message from the book is that this governor has a built-in safety margin. With specific training, you can override this governor and run harder.

I've done Fitzgerald's techniques to overcome this governor and I believe that it works... 4 age group WRs in the past two and a half years.

BTW, Matt got that idea as it pertains to running from Noakes. Just giving credit where credit is due. Also, although I believe it to be true, it is very theoretical and not proven science.

electron1661 wrote:

So coincidental. I ran a super hard 5K the other day and felt terribly the night after and the next day as well. Peed blood and super short of breath. Went down the rabbit hole of reading about Cardiomyopathy, athletes heart, congestive heart failure, kemoy Campbell/Ryan shay, etc.

Did you see a doctor? This sounds like when I had mild rhabdo along with pericarditis. Honestly was a blessing that I got checked out because I ended up getting a full cardiology workup by a renowned sports cardiologist, who basically told me I can push myself as hard as I want. Gave me peace of mind, which definitely gave me a huge psychological boost.

I wish I asked him about pushing to the absolute limit...

deadboi wrote:

Heat and dehydration are secondary killers. I’m talking about pure effort alone, as if everything else was perfect. Many of the anecdotes shared in this thread were due to secondary causes - Salazar and heat, etc...

The closest example I can think of is Ron Clarke, who collapsed and got permanent heart damage after running the 10000m in Mexico City Olympics. That WAS at altitude, so again maybe a "secondary factor".

But I wouldn't really call conditions a secondary killer; they're part of running. Otherwise, you probably need to be doping to push yourself over the line (cyclist Tom Simpson being a famous example).

we need to know wrote:

Chris Everett wrote:

What world records have you broken?

That's what I want to know too. Fisky what world records have you broken?

This is more important than the OP's stupid question. Yes of course you can die from hyperthermia and hypothermia, but there is nothing heroic about it. Nor is it true that the best athletes push beyond the limits. It's a ridiculous idea.

Most importantly, the poster fisky is saying he has 4 age group world records. This is the claim on this thread that needs to be substantiated.

Darn, I should have thought about that before posting. Everyone here is obsessed about calling people out and I'd really prefer to stay anonymous. Okay, well here goes.

I've been on 4 relay teams that broke M70 WRs so saying "I" is a bit misleading, "we" would probably be more accurate. That said, here's a summary.

The first was the M70 4x400m Indoors in the Armory back in January 2018 with teammates Charles Allie, Roger Pierce, and Noah Perlis. What an incredible experience! Here's a link. I'm the guy in the white USA gear.

The 2nd WR was the outdoor 4x800m in Culver City in July? 2018 with three different teammates, Tim Wigger, Salih Talib, and our alternate Fred Lindsey. Because Gary Patton had a family emergency, he couldn't make it so Fred ran with a gimp leg (calf) and pulled it off. I can't remember the old record, but we ran 11:03.46. (I didn't remember the exact time, but it's my Facebook homepage banner so I just looked it up.) I doubt if this record appears in any official document because we broke it two months later.

Gary was instrumental in setting up the WR attempt so I suggested to Tim that we race again as soon as possible to get Gary a relay WR. Tim Wigger organized it and we raced again in September 2018 with Patton, Wigger, and Talib in Wichita, KS, breaking our previous record by 12 seconds, IIRC. This was relay WR #3 for me.

In January 2020, Nolan Shaheed (a legend in our age group), joined Patton, Wigger, and me to break the Indoor M70 4x800m WR, again in Wichita. Talib graciously flew in to be our alternate in case of a last-minute injury. I had a bad race and was the slowest on our team. Still, it was another WR.

Having a WR is an odd feeling. I've never won a national championship. I'm not the fastest in our local track workouts. Health issues have begun to crop up recently. Even world records are temporary. I suspect all these WRs will be broken soon. The upcoming M65 group is very strong.

fisky - thanks for providing the info! Impressive

I don't think about it