VO2 Max development workout

I suggest a 7-10 min field test. 6 minutes especially for younger athletes will favor their natural speed. This causes their training paces to be too fast (especially on the aerobic end of the spectrum).

parkerjohn wrote:

I suggest a 7-10 min field test. 6 minutes especially for younger athletes will favor their natural speed. This causes their training paces to be too fast (especially on the aerobic end of the spectrum).

Interesting, I've found quite the opposite. Their lack of aerobic development limits their ability to actually maintain vVO2 for 6 minutes.

I used to do a 2 mile TT for everyone. It DRASTICALLY underestimated training paces for the newbies. They could easily do 800 repeats at 2 mile TT pace while the same workout would be much harder for my more advanced kids.

I think for the younger kids, something like a 1200 flat out will give a better estimate of vVO2, but as I stated above, I'd rather the younger kids undershoot the workout than overshoot it.

I have one better......most HS programs have such a wide variety of talent and ability.......a 1200 for a freshman girl isnt the same 1200 as a senior boy.

A better way to train is that all athletes run 4 to 5 minute sections at a velocity they can maintain and repeat that effort 4 or 5 times. All athletes complete 20 to 25 minutes of effort.

Bob schul country wrote:

I have one better......most HS programs have such a wide variety of talent and ability.......a 1200 for a freshman girl isnt the same 1200 as a senior boy.

A better way to train is that all athletes run 4 to 5 minute sections at a velocity they can maintain and repeat that effort 4 or 5 times. All athletes complete 20 to 25 minutes of effort.

That's a staple of what we've been doing all summer. 3-5 x 5 minutes at 80%-85% of vVO2 max pace as determined by the 6 minute test. 1 minute recovery jogs in between.

Also, I should have stated above that the young athlete's lack of ANaerobic development/tolerance won't allow them to hold onto vVO2 max for 6 minutes and hence the better indicator for a slower, newbie type might be the 1200. That being said, some of my really newbie newbies don't even make 1200m in their first 6 minute test.

CoachB wrote:

parkerjohn wrote:

I suggest a 7-10 min field test. 6 minutes especially for younger athletes will favor their natural speed. This causes their training paces to be too fast (especially on the aerobic end of the spectrum).

Interesting, I've found quite the opposite. Their lack of aerobic development limits their ability to actually maintain vVO2 for 6 minutes.

I used to do a 2 mile TT for everyone. It DRASTICALLY underestimated training paces for the newbies. They could easily do 800 repeats at 2 mile TT pace while the same workout would be much harder for my more advanced kids.

I think for the younger kids, something like a 1200 flat out will give a better estimate of vVO2, but as I stated above, I'd rather the younger kids undershoot the workout than overshoot it.

This is EXACTLY right, and so few high school coaches understand it!

Mahavishnu1500 wrote:

VO2max development occurs mainly from long, aerobic work.

A workout run at VO2max effort stresses the anaerobic system, thereby raising blood lactate levels. A better name would be an acid tolerance workout. So anything that lowers the pH of the blood would work, ie. 12-20 x 400m, 10x600m, 4x800m etc.

If your goal is to work on acid tolerance, this is not what you'd do. The classic VO2 workouts are too slow and have too much rest. The theory behind these workouts is that there's no point in going any faster because you've already maxed out your aerobic system. (Though it's not clear that there really is a point at which speed increases without increasing oxygen consumption; it's more that the slope levels off.) But if you want very high lactate levels, there's a huge benefit to going faster than VO2. This running is so stressful, however, that in order to get a significant quantity in, you typically have to do sets with full recovery between each one. A classic is multiple sets of 4x200 w/ 30 seconds rest, usually between 400 and 800 pace.

800 dude wrote:

Interesting, I've found quite the opposite. Their lack of aerobic development limits their ability to actually maintain vVO2 for 6 minutes.

Sorry, I should clarify. I think you're right on about newbies being unable to run at vVO2 for 6 minutes. I don't think it's lack of "aerobic development," except to the extent that aerobic development is being used a shorthand for "not enough miles in the legs."; I think it's a lack of what we colloquially call "strength." And I don't think that physiologists have an adequate explanation for what we call "strength." At middle distances, they might call it lactate threshold, but that doesn't hold for longer distances. Some of the literature will grudgingly acknowledge that marathoners also need to "prepare for the pounding" in addition to having VO2/LT/RE. (There seems to be an increasing awareness that fuel is not usually the limiting factor in elite marathoning.) Sometimes the physiologists will say that someone needs to improve their "fractional utilization" of VO2max, which is just another way of saying that someone lacks strength without explaining why.

Newbies generally lack pretty much everything when it comes to where they might end up based on genetic potential and perfect training. Each kid has his/her own set of limiting factors and even an active kid who's played youth soccer or basketball and might have some pretty good anaerobic power will struggle mightily to maintain a hard effort for 6 minutes. In my experience, this is what kids lack coming in

1. Mental toughness. Running is a sport so unlike any other sport that kids will have done prior to coming out for my team (with the exception of the odd wrestler or swimmer that comes out) that they really aren't ready for the level of discomfort they will feel once they try to hold a hard pace for more than a few seconds. Honestly, the ability to concentrate for 6 minutes is something that we really never teach kids athletically until they give running a try.

2. The ability to pace a time trial

3, Lack of tolerance to acidosis

4. Lack of development of aerobic factors due to sustained distance running (cardiac output, capillarization, mitochondrial proliferation....) These are the main determinants of VO2 max, so this one is kind of a no brainer.

5. Fractional utilization / Lactate threshold.

All of these factors taken together lead to a big under performance relative to actual aerobic capacity (except for #4, because those are the determinants of aerobic capacity). So, I'm usually pretty comfortable having newbies run 300s-400s at 100% of their 6 min time trial pace (60-90 seconds) because when they do their initial time trial, they have, almost certainly under performed. For them, we do a second time trial 4-6 weeks after the initial assessment and then calibrate their paces and have them run at the same percentages of the more experienced kids.

I have had more success with ~10 min TT pace (agree that 2 miles is too long). It also depends on what you’re trying to accomplish with interval workouts. I don’t prescribe interval workouts for speed development or heavy acidosis tolerance. I want them running at 10 min TT pace and running to fatigue (high volume of reps). This is as much for aerobic capacity as it is for economy, rhythm, and learning how to relax. I see a lot of HS kids running paces in workouts that are not congruent with what they can do in a race. HS coaches should focus on threshold training and getting these kids to run greater distances in training. As Lydiard would say it’s not the distance that limits you but the speed.

parkerjohn wrote:

I have had more success with ~10 min TT pace (agree that 2 miles is too long). It also depends on what you’re trying to accomplish with interval workouts. I don’t prescribe interval workouts for speed development or heavy acidosis tolerance. I want them running at 10 min TT pace and running to fatigue (high volume of reps). This is as much for aerobic capacity as it is for economy, rhythm, and learning how to relax. I see a lot of HS kids running paces in workouts that are not congruent with what they can do in a race. HS coaches should focus on threshold training and getting these kids to run greater distances in training. As Lydiard would say it’s not the distance that limits you but the speed.

I think we’re singing from the same hymnal. I use a 6 minute test, but most of the quality work we do is from 80%-90% of that (with the exception of the newbs, as discussed above)

Since Talked about newbs so much, I should note that they spend most of their time in my program doing general athletic conditioning for the first 6-10 weeks. I don’t really introduce continuous runs of over 30 minutes until then.

I see the 110% chart, do you have a chart to determine 85-95% Vo2 paces?

When it comes to vo2max improvement you should turn to science. Scientific results indicate that there is a corelation between time endured at over 85% of max HR and improvement in vo2max. For detailed information:

https://www.ntnu.no/ansatte/ulrik.wisloff

Max HR is a constant for each individual although it is the object of small variations due to time of day, how you feel, food and rest. You can test your max HR.

Heart rate during exercise can be measured with ease using a small device. That means you will be able to monitor the time endured at over 85% of max HR.

Then, how to optimaly train for vo2max improvement is not straight forward. There are a number of protocols, however all protocols are based on intervals. 4x4min intervals is a wellknown protocol boadly studied protocol in scientific research on the matter.

How long are these studies? 10 weeks or 10 years. Their claims about the relevance to elite athletes are misleading. Thank goodness, Olympiatoppen is not listening to them.

you're thinking is a bit off mark,

vV02peak varies widely when looking for a specific run duration.

no one size fits all

as for improve this nebulous parameter, the optimal workout would factor in individual strengths and weaknesses. 1200s for some longer or shorter for others.

sort it out like this

runner A highVO2, relatively low vVO2

runner B low VO2, relatively high vVO2

dsrunner wrote:

you're thinking is a bit off mark,

vV02peak varies widely when looking for a specific run duration.

no one size fits all

as for improve this nebulous parameter, the optimal workout would factor in individual strengths and weaknesses. 1200s for some longer or shorter for others.

sort it out like this

runner A highVO2, relatively low vVO2

runner B low VO2, relatively high vVO2

For HS runners does any of this really matter? You are going to be in the ball park (i.e. maybe you run 90s instead of 88 or 92s) of reasonable and the error in measuring (did you have a good night sleep before the TT? ). If you happen to run a bit too slow (i.e. your 10 min instead of 6 min pace), who cares? The athlete will only improve 10% instead of 11%.:) At a certain point you have to accept that something is good enough rather than going for perfection and then tweak things based on how the workout goes.