I've been running 30 mpw for the past few months (no speed work). Previously I was running 15-17 mpw. My 5k has gone down to 19-low 20s which is a big improvement for me.
The thing is I am getting bored of running around the streets logging the miles, which is stopping me from going up to 40mpw.
Also, I am confused about my pacing. On Sunday I did a slow running experiement - I did a 9 mile run at 9 mile pace and my knees were hurting, much more than usual. Also I felt very tired this morning. The only reason I did that experiment was because I read that slowing the pace is good for aerobic development. After I woke myself up this morning I did a 7 mile run at an average of 7:37 pace (47 minutes for 10k) and it felt a lot better... no knee discomfort and I don't feel as tired.
So my questions are
1. Is it sensible for someone at my level to run everything at 7-low 8 minute miles?
2. Can I expect improvement if I stick at 30mpw and increase my pace?
3. Will going up to 40 mpw make a big difference to my times?
Thanks
Is 30 mpw mediocre?
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30 mpw is low if you want to go after serious improvement.
30 mpw is a lot more than 15 mpw though.
Answers to your questions:
1. It’s not sensible for you to run everything at 7:45-8:00 min./mi. pace. That should be a moderate pace for you. I would guess that it’s not truly easy but it’s also not fast enough to help much. Now that you are used to 30 mpw, you should be able to add quite a bit more harder running. Add some runs like 2 mile warm-up, 3 mile tempo, 2 mile cool down. You could run by time. If you run the same amount of time as you do now but you run a bit of it faster, then your weekly mileage will be increased, but very manageable.
2. Yes. You’ll be best off if you can run much faster (tempos, intervals, etc.) 2-3 days and easy the other days.
3. If you increase to 40 mpw but don’t add faster work, you will improve a little bit. If you don’t increase mileage but you add faster work, you will improve more. If you do both, you will improve more.
About the slow running thing: When you slow down to run easier, just run as slow as you need to so that it feels easy. After you slow down to whatever pace that is for you, you don’t need to slow down any further. It could be different on different days. If you’re only running 30 mpw and you’ve only been running for a few months, it’s possible that you do not yet have a pace that is truly easy to run yet, but I would guess that somewhere in the 8:00-8:45 range would be easy enough. There is no point in intentionally slowing yourself down extra because you read about it somewhere. At 30 mpw, you don’t need much easy running anyway. -
You can increase your mileage by 10% weekly with relatively low risk of injury
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I would say that is depends on your goals.
Training is about more than miles and a mile can be very different in terms of training as Alex H points out very nicely. https://www.outsideonline.com/2416474/stop-counting-your-running-mileage-study
Run most of your miles relatively slowly (for Kipchoge that is 6 min/mile for you it might be 8 min/mile). Run some of those miles at a higher intensity.
I think that increasing volume can be beneficial but there is some point for each person where the risk of injury exceeds possible benefits or the fatigue impairs improvement. The trick is to find that value for YOU. Also that volume changes as you train. So running 80mpw right now would probably injure you or put you "in a hole" whereas 5 years from now that might be a normal or even recovery week. -
scalar multiplication wrote:
You can increase your mileage by 10% weekly with relatively low risk of injury
Evidence? This is one of those things tossed out and yet I know of little-any?--evidence to support that it is true. Also, for some people that might be too much of an increase and for others too little (or they could accelerate).
Also, just to be extreme, he would almost double his mileage in 8 weeks using that 10% every week. That seems like a rapid increase to me.
W1 30
W2 33
W3 36 (rounding off)
W4 40
W5 44
W6 48
W7 53
W8 58 -
mileagequestion wrote:
The only reason I did that experiment was because I read that slowing the pace is good for aerobic development.
This is not true in itself. Anything around or below the 'aerobic threshold' will specifically target aerobic development; the aerobic threshold is 'easy', but not trivial/very slow/'recovery' pace. Probably you are around that pace for your runs now. The closer to the aerobic threshold you are, the better training for the same length of run. A major goal, I would say the single most important goal, of training is to improve your aerobic threshold, and to do that you need to provide a stimulus to your aerobic system; running near the aerobic threshold is a good way to do that (it will slowly be a faster pace for the same effort and length of run over time).
A different stimulus can be obtained by slowing down a little, but running further. Time is important when it comes to aerobic development (and for tolerating the impact of running better, which is also important for long term improvement). You wouldn't want a 90 minute or 2 hour run to take too much out of you for the rest of your training, and thus you might wish to slow down a bit, but there's little benefit to slowing down beyond a point that enables you to achieve that. On the contrary it can be a very good stimulus to push yourself on such long runs too.
To get the history right, Lydiard's athletes were doing most of their training at steady/easy pace, not the trivial/'very easy'/recovery pace mentioned above.
Running above the aerobic threshold regularly also provides a big stimulus to the aerobic system, because you are stressing it significantly There are systems of training (the Verheul/easy interval method for instance) which more or less always involve running above the aerobic threshold for some of the time on a run. Again, it is a balance between intensity of stimulus and training volume.
I'd say a decent rule of thumb is to not slow down unless you have to to reach your volume goals. I.e. certainly training more will lead to improvements, and the more quality training you can do the better. But there is a limit to how much one can run at a certain level of intensity in a certain window of time; if you still wish to run more in that window, you'll need to slow down in places.
The art of training is juggling running at all kinds of paces to maximise the stimulus you are providing, of which volume at each and all of these paces is a parameter.
There are people who never run much lower than the aerobic threshold, there are people who nearly always run much lower than it, and there is everything in between! The key is to run with a purpose/stimulus in mind, not just slow down for the sake of it. -
30MPW is fine to get to about 98% of potential. 50 gets you to 99% and 75 gets that last 1%. Do one progressive run per week and run easy days at 7:45-8 minute pace and you will be down to 17:59 in a year. I ran 14:40 last year doing 33MPW with 1 progressive run and 6:40 pace for the rest.
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0. Yes, 30 mpw is mediocre. I mean it's great for you right now, but it's where a lot of local joggers hit a plateau.
1. High 7/low 8 minute pace is probably sensible, if it feels okay to you. But as others have already pointed out, other paces have their purposes.
2. If you just run your same 30 mpw faster, you'll improve, but still hit a plateau. You need to introduce different kinds of variations to your running.
3. Going up to 40 mpw has made a big difference for a lot of people. Whether it does for you remains to be seen, but it probably would have a significant effect.
4. If you're starting to get bored, now's the time to mix things up. Do a longer run one day a week, and a faster sustained run one day a week (the tempo run described above), and some basic intervals another day. Introduce these one at a time, not all at once, and start at a modest effort level. (Also, hilly routes, trails, scenic routes, and exploring new areas helps keep things interesting.)
5. You were sore after your run at 9:00 pace not just because of the mileage, but because of the time. You were running for 81 minutes, significantly longer than the 56 minutes you'd spend for 7 miles at 8:00/mile. The fact that you're sore tells you that this was a good workout for you. Call it your long run for the week, or for two weeks.
As you push out the distance or the speed of various runs like this bit by bit, you'll cause new stresses, causing new adaptations, causing you to get faster. Soreness that you recover from is the sign that it's working. -
talent wins over wrote:
30MPW is fine to get to about 98% of potential. 50 gets you to 99% and 75 gets that last 1%. Do one progressive run per week and run easy days at 7:45-8 minute pace and you will be down to 17:59 in a year. I ran 14:40 last year doing 33MPW with 1 progressive run and 6:40 pace for the rest.
I think 98% is too high. I see quite a few local joggers who hover at 20:00 for 5K who should be capable of 17:00 at least. I'd say more like 80-85%, which is enough for some people, but misses a lot of the fun parts. -
Luv2Run wrote:
scalar multiplication wrote:
You can increase your mileage by 10% weekly with relatively low risk of injury
Evidence? This is one of those things tossed out and yet I know of little-any?--evidence to support that it is true. Also, for some people that might be too much of an increase and for others too little (or they could accelerate).
Also, just to be extreme, he would almost double his mileage in 8 weeks using that 10% every week. That seems like a rapid increase to me.
W1 30
W2 33
W3 36 (rounding off)
W4 40
W5 44
W6 48
W7 53
W8 58
If you think this is "extreme" that means you lack motivation and commitment.
W9 63.
W10 69.
W11 76.
W12 83.
W13 91.
W14 100.
Anyone without serious disability should be able to handle this -
HRE > Rupp wrote:
If you think this is "extreme" that means you lack motivation and commitment.
W9 63.
W10 69.
W11 76.
W12 83.
W13 91.
W14 100.
Anyone without serious disability should be able to handle this
Injury would be an almost certainty. -
Ha Ha Ha wrote:
HRE > Rupp wrote:
If you think this is "extreme" that means you lack motivation and commitment.
W9 63.
W10 69.
W11 76.
W12 83.
W13 91.
W14 100.
Anyone without serious disability should be able to handle this
Injury would be an almost certainty.
Like most things in life, running injuries would go away if you ignore them long enough. The best way to prevent future injuries is to ignore the current one. -
my 2c wrote:
0. Yes, 30 mpw is mediocre. I mean it's great for you right now, but it's where a lot of local joggers hit a plateau.
1. High 7/low 8 minute pace is probably sensible, if it feels okay to you. But as others have already pointed out, other paces have their purposes.
2. If you just run your same 30 mpw faster, you'll improve, but still hit a plateau. You need to introduce different kinds of variations to your running.
3. Going up to 40 mpw has made a big difference for a lot of people. Whether it does for you remains to be seen, but it probably would have a significant effect.
4. If you're starting to get bored, now's the time to mix things up. Do a longer run one day a week, and a faster sustained run one day a week (the tempo run described above), and some basic intervals another day. Introduce these one at a time, not all at once, and start at a modest effort level. (Also, hilly routes, trails, scenic routes, and exploring new areas helps keep things interesting.)
5. You were sore after your run at 9:00 pace not just because of the mileage, but because of the time. You were running for 81 minutes, significantly longer than the 56 minutes you'd spend for 7 miles at 8:00/mile. The fact that you're sore tells you that this was a good workout for you. Call it your long run for the week, or for two weeks.
As you push out the distance or the speed of various runs like this bit by bit, you'll cause new stresses, causing new adaptations, causing you to get faster. Soreness that you recover from is the sign that it's working.
I agree with more or less everything here. -
My 2c made many excellent points.
3 up and 1 down is a good way to build mileage and let your body recover. This means to gradually mileage for three weeks and then reduce mileage and intensity for one week.
1. 33 mpw
2. 36 mpw
3. 40 mpw
4. 30 mpw
5. 36 mpw
6. 40 mpw
7. 44 mpw
8. 30-35 mpw
Remember, running improvement is not linear. Some days your body may feel blasé as you build mileage but don’t let it fool you. I crushed two workouts this week despite feeling sluggish during the warm up and first few reps. -
HRE > Rupp wrote:
Luv2Run wrote:
scalar multiplication wrote:
You can increase your mileage by 10% weekly with relatively low risk of injury
Evidence? This is one of those things tossed out and yet I know of little-any?--evidence to support that it is true. Also, for some people that might be too much of an increase and for others too little (or they could accelerate).
Also, just to be extreme, he would almost double his mileage in 8 weeks using that 10% every week. That seems like a rapid increase to me.
W1 30
W2 33
W3 36 (rounding off)
W4 40
W5 44
W6 48
W7 53
W8 58
If you think this is "extreme" that means you lack motivation and commitment.
W9 63.
W10 69.
W11 76.
W12 83.
W13 91.
W14 100.
Anyone without serious disability should be able to handle this
You are nuts. Some people might be able to do that. Wait, a few people might be able to do that with no negatives consequences.
As I said in an earlier response, questions like this often get silly answers and contradictory ones. -
my 2c wrote:
0. Yes, 30 mpw is mediocre. I mean it's great for you right now, but it's where a lot of local joggers hit a plateau.
1. High 7/low 8 minute pace is probably sensible, if it feels okay to you. But as others have already pointed out, other paces have their purposes.
2. If you just run your same 30 mpw faster, you'll improve, but still hit a plateau. You need to introduce different kinds of variations to your running.
3. Going up to 40 mpw has made a big difference for a lot of people. Whether it does for you remains to be seen, but it probably would have a significant effect.
4. If you're starting to get bored, now's the time to mix things up. Do a longer run one day a week, and a faster sustained run one day a week (the tempo run described above), and some basic intervals another day. Introduce these one at a time, not all at once, and start at a modest effort level. (Also, hilly routes, trails, scenic routes, and exploring new areas helps keep things interesting.)
5. You were sore after your run at 9:00 pace not just because of the mileage, but because of the time. You were running for 81 minutes, significantly longer than the 56 minutes you'd spend for 7 miles at 8:00/mile. The fact that you're sore tells you that this was a good workout for you. Call it your long run for the week, or for two weeks.
As you push out the distance or the speed of various runs like this bit by bit, you'll cause new stresses, causing new adaptations, causing you to get faster. Soreness that you recover from is the sign that it's working.
My 2c nailed it.
I would also add that you are sore because you are not used to the pace. You have to work up to longer times at slower paces just like anything else. You fire muscles slightly differently and land slightly differently at slower paces giving a totally new stress. Suddenly doing 81 minutes of anything that you aren't used to is going to make you sore. When I added slower running I would start at 2 miles or mix it into a regular run. -
I do most of my miles at 9-10+ minute pace but most of my running is on steep hills. When I do run on flat surface I am still slow. I thought I would be able to maintain or even improve speed-wise running only hills but that seems not to be the case. I never do workouts any more, except for occasional Fartlek on sections of my run. And when I run downhill I try to run as fast as I can without it feeling like work. Easy running can become really hard without running much faster on hills. There are some really strong runners around where I live and they run up and down these hills like it's nothing. That's Fine track club and some of the Salomon runners. I don't know their PRs or if they would be considered good nationally but they are running 60-80mpw on these hills and winning the local races.
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In 19min shape I wouldn't recommend run slower than 8:10-8:20 for recovery or very long runs. The mechanics or running start to change too much. Plus you're probably not getting enough stimulus during these runs
I'd say 30mpw is the minimum where you'll see a lot of improvement in the first year, especially if your focus is 5k, slowly increasing another10 or 15mpw will certainly bring some gains with low risk
If planning on running 10k or HM at your same fitness level you definitely need those extra miles, even at the recreational level -
No you don't. 30 MPW is 6 miles per day, 5 days per week. Why woukd you need more to run a 10k? You could do 30 MPW with a 10 miler and three 7 milers and run a fine 1/2 M. I could probably run close to 30 minutes for 10k on 30 MPW.
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My focus has been the half, so not so much in the way of speed sessions.
On just 20mpw I went from:
5k: 25:1x => 21:2x
10k 58:xx => 45:1x
HM: 2:13:xx => 1:43:3x
After a break and 2 months of 30mpw:
5k: 21:1x => 20:3x
10k 45:1x => 44:4x
HM: 1:43:3x => 1:38:3x
I've started pushing 40mpw recently. Sadly, with the hot weather/humidity here and COVID I haven't had the chance to test the benefits.
Take note that at slow paces, you might have crappy form. People generally have lower cadences, etc when purposely going slow.
