YMMV wrote:
Millions in Europe and UK are waking up to the scam and standing up for grassroots freedom over top-down tyranny and authoritarian indoctrination:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkS_hyljVaY&feature=youtu.be
If by millions you mean thousands, then sure. Millions. Just like I'm a millionaire.
Wow, it sure is a coincidence how all of those people with non-covid medical conditions started dying at abnormally high rates around the time that coronavirus came to the US! I am glad to learn that covid didn't have any effect on them.
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
Precious Roy wrote:
I knew the COVD clowns would jump on this. The CDC considers things like pneumonia, heart failure, etc. as "co-morbidities." The term on death certificates is not exclusive to pre-existing conditions but includes conditions caused by COVID 19. When a death certificate just says "COVID 19", someone did not do their job correctly as people do not just flop over dead from COVID 19. More often than not it is pneumonia cause by the virus that causes death, but also sepsis, cardiac arrest and organ failure. As has been reported numerous times, there is absolutely no reason to doubt that COVID 19 caused these people to die. Without COVID 19, these people would be alive and have many years to live. In fact the real story is that the COVID 19 death count is an undercount because many states will not test people who die before getting to the hospital and will not test people who go straight to ICU and die shortly thereafter. These people are often clearly COVID 19 victims with CT scan signatures that are clearly indicative of COVID 19 death. But they do not get counted because states require a positive test and do not accept a presumptive diagnosis.
Roy in the past I respected your view which was different than my own because I felt you were at least after the truth. But as more information has come out these attempts to hold your original position rather than evaluate new information are becoming extremely unresponsible.
Many of the most common comorbidities or underlying conditions are hypertension, diabetes, cancer, renal failure, dementia, amongst others. COVID in no way causes these issues and to say these people would have lived years without COVID is false. The co-morbidities such as heart failure and respiratory causes we have no reliable data on how many of those COVID was the cause of death vs a minor factor.
Approximately half of COVID deaths in the US are nursing home. If the person had just moved into the nursing home average life expectancy would be 13 months. So at worst case they lost a year or life, likely much less. The myth that people are losing years to life has been propagated by the BS review someone did early on that took the age of death of each individual who died of COVID and assigned the average life expectancy of a person at that age to the individual and calculated life of loss from there. They came up with 10 years but the conclusion was utterly false because it took into no account the condition of the individual. A 75-year-old who is active and has no major health issues has a far greater life expectancy than a 75-year-old in assisted care. On a case by case basis, there is a much much higher chance that the 75-year-old in the nursing home will die if infected then the active 75-year-old. Studies that have gone to the individual level and looked at remaining life expectancy based on the individual's condition peg the average loss of life far lower and the median at just a couple of months.
COVID does cause pneumonia, heart failure, etc. and those are all treated as co-morbidities for the purpose of death certificates. There is a big difference between a co-morbidity for the purposes of epidemiology. Death certificates do not distinguish things that are directly caused by COVID, like pneumonia, when stating co-morbidities.
And the recent UC Berkeley study on the effect of COVID on lifespan totally misses the point. They found a 1 year reduction in AVERAGE lifespan in the US (posters on this board claimed a few weeks). That is when you spread out the loss of life over the entire population. When you look at average loss of life span of those who get COVID and are not sitting in a nursing home, you see people dying long before their time. But the COVID deniers love to play with statistics to try to convince people that COVID is just some nursing home disease that is no threat to anyone else. That is a complete lie.
Precious Roy wrote:
COVID does cause pneumonia, heart failure, etc. and those are all treated as co-morbidities for the purpose of death certificates.
Does COVID-19 cause 100% of heart failures in infected people?
Is this the same methodology that coroners have used to record flu deaths in the past?
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
If the person had just moved into the nursing home average life expectancy would be 13 months. So at worst case they lost a year or life, likely much less.
This isn't the first time you've said this. You LOVE hammering on the 'average life expectancy'. You make it seem like losing 13 months of your life is OK. It's a pretty disgusting view.
Obviously, not everyone passes away at 13 months. Sure, many individuals placed into homes with severe dementia pass quickly (a few months). On the flip, the 'average life expectancy' being at 13 months means that many would have lived for many more years. 3 years, 2 years, 2 months, 2 months, 1 month. There's your 13 month average. Unlike you, I don't think those 2-3 years are dismissible.
Hopefully, you have updated your will to reflect that "if I have 13 months to live of less, please know I am expendable".
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
Studies that have gone to the individual level and looked at remaining life expectancy based on the individual's condition peg the average loss of life far lower and the median at just a couple of months.
Link them.
macdaddy wrote:
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
If the person had just moved into the nursing home average life expectancy would be 13 months. So at worst case they lost a year or life, likely much less.
This isn't the first time you've said this. You LOVE hammering on the 'average life expectancy'. You make it seem like losing 13 months of your life is OK. It's a pretty disgusting view.
Obviously, not everyone passes away at 13 months. Sure, many individuals placed into homes with severe dementia pass quickly (a few months). On the flip, the 'average life expectancy' being at 13 months means that many would have lived for many more years. 3 years, 2 years, 2 months, 2 months, 1 month. There's your 13 month average. Unlike you, I don't think those 2-3 years are dismissible.
Hopefully, you have updated your will to reflect that "if I have 13 months to live of less, please know I am expendable".
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
Studies that have gone to the individual level and looked at remaining life expectancy based on the individual's condition peg the average loss of life far lower and the median at just a couple of months.
Link them.
Can't link what doesn't exist.
Typical American wrote:
Allen53 wrote:
On the bright side it's good to see that the CDC finally got called out as a QANON conspiracy operation. Where's that winkie thing?
Wait, Al, I thought you were a big supporter of the Q? Weren't you the one two weeks ago parroting their talking points?
Flip flopping again I see.
Feeble minded.
You don't even have a sense of humor- not surprised.
I'm one of those whackos out there that barely even knows what QANON or snapchat or instagram or twitter is or does. I also don't watch TV- haven't for over 30 years except for a very rare sports event. So I'm not subject to the same propaganda and fear that you are.
I read lengthy articles and do research and understand the history and economics of what is happening. You do cartoon versions of political puppetry.
Haven't checked one of these threads in a while since they just continue to rehash the same thing over and over. Good to see that they are left mainly to the tin foil crew posting over and over again and most of the sane have left.
1955 wrote:
That's not what it means. Most death certificates also list comorbidities. Eg, just because someone also had diabetes, obesity, or even heart disease, that doesn't mean that is what killed them -- they might have lived several more years with those conditions.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/30/politics/twitter-coronavirus-deaths-false-claim-qanon-trump/index.html
Exactly!
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
Precious Roy wrote:
I knew the COVD clowns would jump on this. The CDC considers things like pneumonia, heart failure, etc. as "co-morbidities." The term on death certificates is not exclusive to pre-existing conditions but includes conditions caused by COVID 19. When a death certificate just says "COVID 19", someone did not do their job correctly as people do not just flop over dead from COVID 19. More often than not it is pneumonia cause by the virus that causes death, but also sepsis, cardiac arrest and organ failure. As has been reported numerous times, there is absolutely no reason to doubt that COVID 19 caused these people to die. Without COVID 19, these people would be alive and have many years to live. In fact the real story is that the COVID 19 death count is an undercount because many states will not test people who die before getting to the hospital and will not test people who go straight to ICU and die shortly thereafter. These people are often clearly COVID 19 victims with CT scan signatures that are clearly indicative of COVID 19 death. But they do not get counted because states require a positive test and do not accept a presumptive diagnosis.
Roy in the past I respected your view which was different than my own because I felt you were at least after the truth. But as more information has come out these attempts to hold your original position rather than evaluate new information are becoming extremely unresponsible.
Many of the most common comorbidities or underlying conditions are hypertension, diabetes, cancer, renal failure, dementia, amongst others. COVID in no way causes these issues and to say these people would have lived years without COVID is false. The co-morbidities such as heart failure and respiratory causes we have no reliable data on how many of those COVID was the cause of death vs a minor factor.
Approximately half of COVID deaths in the US are nursing home. If the person had just moved into the nursing home average life expectancy would be 13 months. So at worst case they lost a year or life, likely much less. The myth that people are losing years to life has been propagated by the BS review someone did early on that took the age of death of each individual who died of COVID and assigned the average life expectancy of a person at that age to the individual and calculated life of loss from there. They came up with 10 years but the conclusion was utterly false because it took into no account the condition of the individual. A 75-year-old who is active and has no major health issues has a far greater life expectancy than a 75-year-old in assisted care. On a case by case basis, there is a much much higher chance that the 75-year-old in the nursing home will die if infected then the active 75-year-old. Studies that have gone to the individual level and looked at remaining life expectancy based on the individual's condition peg the average loss of life far lower and the median at just a couple of months.
Exactly...it's not so much a senior citizen's age but their health status. Think of all the seniors that run marathons, cycle, XC ski and just generally stay active.
The nursing homes are a whole different situation. The elderly aren't put there to get any better or improve on their conditions that put them there in the first place. Sadly, nursing homes are about as bad as it gets for the elderly.
One of the main pathologies that has a high mortality rate is "Nursing Home Acquired Pneumonia" (viral, bacterial & fungus). NHAP is one of the most common infectious diseases in long-term care facilities and is a significant cause of mortality and morbidity among the residents:
https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/234916-overview#a1Allen53 has stopped responding to my posts entirely - makes the discourse less mind-numbing for me at least. Still would like to see him explain the excess death numbers - globally.
Allen53 wrote:
If it were not for the administrative euthanasia of tens of thousands of elderly people from nursing homes there simply wouldn't be the bodies to drum up this level of hysteria.
That's where the investigations need to be (and there are some emerging) and it is the height of irony and hypocrisy that those who are always bleating on about how we skeptics are callous towards grandma avoid this niggling little factoid. Why aren't these people, who through their endless virtue signalling falsely claim the high moral ground, calling for these types of investigations? One could suspect that they really don't care about the pursuit of the truth and instead have some other motives.
On the bright side it's good to see that the CDC finally got called out as a QANON conspiracy operation. Where's that winkie thing?
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
The people with no co morbidity or non covid underlying cause of death are generally much more elderly. It is not young healthy people in general. Also do you realize how big the US population is? Even if 180k is the real number and none of those would have died with out COVID that is barely over .05% of the US population. .4% of the US population would die over the period since COVID started in a normal year. Depending on how you want to look at the death count we have either overreacted or dramatically overreacted.
"Actually, death isn't that bad"
COVID will likely be the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA this year. Excess deaths confirm this.
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
If the person had just moved into the nursing home average life expectancy would be 13 months. So at worst case they lost a year or life, likely much less.
Damn, I should have read more into the thread before posting. Gold-tier level stuff.
"Actually, old people should just die"
I'll amend, even if we remove ALL nursing home deaths, COVID will likely be the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA this year.
Dang! We had this sweet conspiracy going on, controlled the majority the population and then some idiot at the CDC has to publish the actual data!!!!!
It’s over
https://www.barrons.com/news/sweden-admits-failure-to-protect-elderly-in-care-homes-015890787062600 bro wrote:
Still would like to see him explain the excess death numbers - globally.
"Other personnel have admitted going to work despite exhibiting symptoms of the virus, potentially infecting residents, while some elderly have reportedly been infected while admitted to hospital for other treatments and then sent back to care homes where they unwittingly spread the disease."
https://www.politico.eu/article/the-silent-coronavirus-covid19-massacre-in-italy-milan-lombardy-nursing-care-homes-elderly/"The nursing home's staff were not given proper protective equipment and were told not to wear masks to avoid frightening patients, a common directive in many other nursing homes in Italy during the crisis."
https://nypost.com/2020/08/18/indigenous-protesters-in-brazil-demand-covid-19-protection/"They claimed to have few doctors, scarce personal protective equipment and no nearby intensive care unit beds for COVID-19 patients."
https://nypost.com/2020/04/26/cuomo-doubles-down-on-sending-coronavirus-patients-to-nursing-homesThe New York governor sent coronavirus patients to nursing homes.
WOW admitting people have died in excess of normal is a BIG step for you guys! I'm impressed!
facts and reason wrote:
https://www.barrons.com/news/sweden-admits-failure-to-protect-elderly-in-care-homes-01589078706"Other personnel have admitted going to work despite exhibiting symptoms of the virus, potentially infecting residents, while some elderly have reportedly been infected while admitted to hospital for other treatments and then sent back to care homes where they unwittingly spread the disease."
...
macdaddy wrote:
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
If the person had just moved into the nursing home average life expectancy would be 13 months. So at worst case they lost a year or life, likely much less.
This isn't the first time you've said this. You LOVE hammering on the 'average life expectancy'. You make it seem like losing 13 months of your life is OK. It's a pretty disgusting view.
Obviously, not everyone passes away at 13 months. Sure, many individuals placed into homes with severe dementia pass quickly (a few months). On the flip, the 'average life expectancy' being at 13 months means that many would have lived for many more years. 3 years, 2 years, 2 months, 2 months, 1 month. There's your 13 month average. Unlike you, I don't think those 2-3 years are dismissible.
Hopefully, you have updated your will to reflect that "if I have 13 months to live of less, please know I am expendable".
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
Studies that have gone to the individual level and looked at remaining life expectancy based on the individual's condition peg the average loss of life far lower and the median at just a couple of months.
Link them.
I don't believe that we should just let old people die and not care. That you characterize it that way is completely offensive. What I've said from the start is there is a significant cost to the actions we are taking due to the virus. We, unfortunately, do not live in a world where we can take any measure to protect every life with no other cost to society. The US has been headed towards a fiscal cliff for a while with its irresponsible money habits and the idea that excess beyond what we produce can be financed with debt indefinitely. Our COVID response of heavy money printing and borrowing with a steep decline in productivity has accelerated this process and is going to make the crash way more painful. The great recession of a decade ago is going to look like a speed bump compared to what we're headed towards. The loss of life expectancy due to the upcoming recession is going to dwarf the COVID loss of life our actions have prevented.
First, I'm not a "we need to be quarantined forever" person OR a "this is a conspiracy, masks are for sheep" person.
I find this spin on the "only 6% didn't have a comorbidity" statistic pretty frustrating. Here is my personal example:
First, I realize I am unlikely to die if I get Covid. I am a fit male in my late 30s. HOWEVER, following a radical nephrectomy, my GFR rating is such that I officially have chronic kidney disease (CKD). Obviously this isn't great, but, based on the numbers and my otherwise good health, I should expect to live at least 25 years or more.
But, if i DO get Covid and die (CKD is listed as one of the major risk factors for a serious Covid illness), are some of you going to say that Covid didn't kill me because I already have a comorbidity, even though that alone was probably not going to kill me for many, many years?
Again, I know I probably won't die from Covid, but I just wanted to throw my personal example out there as someone who is youngish, fit, and has a potential comorbidity that basically doesn't affect my quality of life at all (and shouldn't for many years). Having another condition listed on your death certificate doesn't mean that one was about to kill you on its own.
https://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/cd4-count-what-does-it-meannot orrin hatch wrote:
But, if i DO get Covid and die (CKD is listed as one of the major risk factors for a serious Covid illness), are some of you going to say that Covid didn't kill me because I already have a comorbidity, even though that alone was probably not going to kill me for many, many years?
"The CD4 count is a test that measures how many CD4 cells you have in your blood. These are a type of white blood cell, called T-cells, that move throughout your body to find and destroy bacteria, viruses, and other invading germs."
What is your CD4 count?
The common cold can be deadly if you have a weak immune system.
A small scratch can lead to flesh-eating bacteria.
https://www.foxnews.com/health/woman-cat-scratch-flesh-eating-bacteriaWe shouldn't exaggerate and say COVID-19 is 100% the cause when they didn't do this for influenza.
facts and reason wrote:
not orrin hatch wrote:
But, if i DO get Covid and die (CKD is listed as one of the major risk factors for a serious Covid illness), are some of you going to say that Covid didn't kill me because I already have a comorbidity, even though that alone was probably not going to kill me for many, many years?
Yes
^I summarized their answer for you