While running a 5k at your limit, at which point in the race is the discomfort/pain expected to begin?

Man Overboard wrote:

a runner wondering wrote:

As I run pretty much alone, I'm interested in your opnions about which point in the race are we expected to start feeling the discomfort/pain that is characteristic to the event?

To see if I'm gauging my efforts correctly?

Second kilometer.

A well-run 5k is a suffer-fest from about the first mile marker to the finish.

you cant be pacing it correctly if you're suffering at 2K...

a runner wondering wrote:

As I run pretty much alone, I'm interested in your opnions about which point in the race are we expected to start feeling the discomfort/pain that is characteristic to the event?

To see if I'm gauging my efforts correctly?

maybe 1200 in? a mile in if you are lucky? Sometimes it is good to get out of your comfort zone but not by too much and challenge guys ahead of you. I remember once I came through 2 miles in 9:50(4:55 pace ~15:10-20s pace) when my pr was only 9:58 and I died a good bit(15:51 5:06 pace) but I wasn't in no mans land and set a then school record. Thinking back I am pretty sure I have never run a evenly paced 5k haha

praythroughthelastmile wrote:

Man Overboard wrote:

Second kilometer.

A well-run 5k is a suffer-fest from about the first mile marker to the finish.

you cant be pacing it correctly if you're suffering at 2K...

Sometimes you can be suffering 2k in but feel great again with 1k to go

Approximately 1.5 miles since start. I think it's normal for runners, especially if you are not very prepared sportsmen.

I think around 1 mile in you start breathing a bit heavier,around 2k real pain kicks in. At 2.5-3k you start thinking about stopping, because it hurts so much, but you have to keep telling yourself just a little bit more.

Many years ago, the Cooper Institute held a camp/study with many of U.S. & world's top runners at the time. It included Shorter, Pre, etc. They tested VO2, muscle fiber make up (fast v slow), etc. They also did a mental evaluation by asking many questions about races, pain, approach etc. The thing that jumped out for me was they observed a very different approach between national and world level runners. The national guys, almost across the board, did everything possible to minimize and delay discomfort. While the world level guys, almost all, focused on discomfort, challenged it, tried to bring more of it on their opponents, etc. An example was a national marathoner who was an architect built a home from scratch in his head during a marathon hoping to get far into the race before dealing with discomfort. The world guys embraced discomfort even early, tried to increase or 'take on' more, and tried to make it hell on opponents, separating them.

This follows what I read about Bob Kennedy and posted earlier in this thread.

I think Kenny Moore wrote the piece which would likely make it a Sports Illustrated story, but the last time I tried to locate it a few years ago i could not find it. Maybe someone with much better research skills than mine can find it if you have an interest. It was a very involved long article that was fascinating to read although possibly outdated in some respects now.

It has been shown that the better runners mentally associate, meaning that they are focusing on their body, their breathing, their form, how they feel. This includes associating with the pain and effort of running fast and hard.

The less than better runners disassociate, meaning they tend to try to distract themselves from the effort and pain. They may look around, think of other things, listen to music, etc.

If you run any race near your maximum the last third will take a lot of effort and focus. You need to spend over 50% of your effort maintaining your pace over the last third.

Does anyone remember highly successful Indiana swim coach Doc Counsilman, who wrote about Hurt-Pain-Agony in his The Science of Swimming book? Mediocre swimmers could push themselves till their hurt, Very good swimmers could push themselves to pain. The very best swimmers push themselves to agony.

Multiple world record holder Henry Rono spoke of running interval workouts primarily to train the mind. Training the mind to accept and embrace pain and agony?

But the very best 5K runners, running their fastest times or winning the biggest races, rarely appear to be in agony during those races. Maybe hurt and pain in the last one third of a race, but not agony. They never talk about being in agony when asked about those races. They never appear to be in pain or agony when they finish. Maybe they peak properly so it all comes together on race day, and their race is relatively easy. Maybe they do the training so that the race is easier by comparison.

My very best 5ks, when I set PRs and/or won races, were done with hurt and pain during the last mile. Some of the many 5km races where I was slower than my pr, and was not close to winning, involved more hurt and pain setting in by 2k. Perhaps my inability to go into agony explains why I was never really great.

So to run your best 5k, there will be discomfort at one mile, and pain at two miles.

You want to train and prepare properly so that every once in a while you have a great 5k that seems relatively easy.

In 1975, Michael Pollock, director of the Institute for Aerobics Research in Dallas, Texas, led a group of researchers in a multi-day study of 20 elite distance runners. Frank Shorter and Steve Prefontaine led the all-star ensemble of the best runners in America. Previous research had been limited by a small number of test variables or few subjects. This project was unique in incorporating a research team, a large sample and a more comprehensive test battery administered by experts in different domains: for example, muscle biopsies and fiber typing by David Costill (Ball State University), biomechanical analysis by Peter Cavanagh (Penn State University), psychological characterization by William Morgan (University of Wisconsin), and cardiorespiratory, metabolic and body composition measures by M. Pollock. The next year (1976) in New York City, findings from this project along with a host of other papers by notable investigators from far and wide were presented at a conference on the marathon runner. Sponsored by the New York Academy of Sciences, the published proceedings, a large volume at over 1,000 pages, has become a classic reference (1).

...

Olympic marathoner and journalist Kenny Moore recounted his experiences as a subject in the Dallas study in a Sports Illustrated article (15).

I think Kenny Moore was very good at his article writing.

Yes, This is it.

I know how poor my research skills are and you seemed to pull it up very quickly. I am humbled.

I think it is a very interesting read. Did you get a chance to read it?

this is this, I am aware of Counsilman. He was an innovator in a lot of ways. Among other things he was the first that I know of to take blood samples during workouts to steer training. Thanks for sharing. That is good stuff.

You did a good job of recall.

Here is a link to the SI article:

https://vault.si.com/vault/43339#&gid=ci0258bf0d200126ef&pid=43339---075---image

Here is a link to the blog I quoted, that referenced the SI article:

https://blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2016/05/07/distance-running-part-ii-landmark-research-projects-and-science-based-books/

I found the SI article fascinating from a historical perspective. Conclusions were being drawn regarding the ration of slow-twitch/fast-twitch fibers. They contrasted Shorter's (lower) and Pre's (higher) VO2max. The interesting thing we learn from the article, is that the VO2max measurements were made on a rather claustrophobic setup. Possibly that would explain why some participants, like Shorter, pegged lower (in order to end the test prematurely)? What do think about that?

This is what we read in the SI article being discussed:

"...Costill (extracting their leg muscle tissue) observed that runners were far less squeamish than any other group. "They're best at this because they are good at controlling their bodies." He agreed with the runner's view that simply knowing what to expect is the key to overcoming discomfort, not any sort of innate high pain threshold. Inuring oneself to the pain of running hard is a trick born of practice, not something given or denied at birth. "The threshold concept is a cop-out," said Prefontaine."

5k is like the 400 on the track by the time it really starts to hurt, you're done. 10k at 4 miles 1/2 marathon at 10. No hyper-ventilating until the last mile.

it is, what it is wrote:

I found the SI article fascinating from a historical perspective. Conclusions were being drawn regarding the ration of slow-twitch/fast-twitch fibers. They contrasted Shorter's (lower) and Pre's (higher) VO2max. The interesting thing we learn from the article, is that the VO2max measurements were made on a rather claustrophobic setup. Possibly that would explain why some participants, like Shorter, pegged lower (in order to end the test prematurely)? What do think about that?

Yes, everyone seemed to make a point that the VO2 testing was clumsy. Kenny Moore was an excellent runner and probably an even better journalist. That compbination allowed attention to things like the claustrophobic nature of the testing and other nuances a normal journalist would not understand or address. I think it is that element that gives this article and study more credence than most.

Your Costill quote is very enlightening and may offer as much to this thread as anything. It explains what most of us know but struggle to verbalize. However, it is not an approach just anybody can put in action, even though everyone seems to have the potentiall ability to do so. I still believe genetic ability skews how good a runner will eventually become. But we all seem to grasp onto aspects like Costill's quote because it makes us believe the window is open a little wider for all. And it is needed to get to the top part of each individual's genetic window.

Tinmania wrote:

If you are really racing against others of similar ability, pain isn't really an issue.

Tinman says that when he ran his fastest 5k he didn't feel pain because he was so focused on the race. I had the same experience.

I had similar experiences. My best 5K times were in races were I was focusing on staying with and then dropping the competition. Discomfort set up very early, but as I started dropping runners and going strong it felt manageable. It got bad only in the last half-mile or so, when kicking home.

+1

Yes, it erroneous to conclude from Costill's quote that elite times are available to all if they just learn how to endure the discomfort of fast racing. Rather, as you say, that is what "is needed to get to the top part of each individual's genetic window."

this and this wrote:

It has been shown that the better runners mentally associate, meaning that they are focusing on their body, their breathing, their form, how they feel. This includes associating with the pain and effort of running fast and hard.

Shown how? Nearly all of the very best runners show no sign of being in pain at all.

Effort is not the same as pain! It's hard to maintain, but that's not pain, that's energy and focus. Think of the times when you had endless energy to hold an effort for a long time, seemingly impervious to fatigue. Was it painful?

Only in your MIND is effort painful, and only when your nerves are fatigued and looking for an excuse to dial back on the effort. Most runners don't seem to understand that everything muscles do depends on the nerves.