New Zealand 102 days with out Covid case records 4 new cases from unknown source will lock country down for 3 days

You are not even from the US and you are telling us how to run our country. Typical of the liberal mindset. What 3rd world country are you from?

jumping jack jack jumping wrote:

Yes, of course there is no other plan. We have only two options here - vaccine or herd immunity. The herd immunity option requires allowing the virus to burn through the population killing potentially millions. The vaccine option requires us to do this lockdown / distancing thing for maybe a year more, probably less than that. It sucks but given the relatively short wait (I know, I know, it feels like forever), you absolutely try the less deadly option first.

You're right that there's no plan B, and maybe no one wants to talk about it, but do you not agree on giving a fair shot to Plan A first? What is the reason you are being critical right now?

I'd be inclined to not press people for more a more comprehensivev strategy if we knew with certainty that a safe vaccine would be available soon. However, the history of vaccines has shown us there's a good chance what we get in January-April next year won't hit the mark. Worse, it may never hit the mark.

Back in March any reasonable person should have asked the question "what happens if this doesn't go away by July". Today is August 11th. Schools are opening and we have districts that have created schedules for kids to attend class, but have in no way simulated for themselves the actual lives of these kids in school under each plan. This is how you end up with photos online of kids in the hallways all at the same time, with no precautions taken. It's as if no one thought we'd be here.

Do you think our gov't leaders could have done more? This is a systematic breakdown at every level of gov't. It's almost as if WE the people need to ask our elected officials what the plan is before they will do any actual planning. I for one don't want to be sitting here in April still asking "what's the long term plan". The current plan is not a long term plan.

Best post so far.

I hope for an effective vaccine ASAP. However, knowing how hard and rare vaccines are to come by, I think it’s reasonable to ask the question “How do we live in a world where COVID-19 is a constant reality?”

I don’t think a practical or even desirable answer is permanent or constantly reoccurring lockdowns.

A "systematic breakdown at every level of government" that has nevertheless controlled the virus with only 22 deaths and introduced record levels of targeted government spending to cushion the inevitable recession, while enabling New Zealanders to recommence their lives without any of the restrictions that we see in most other countries? I suppose you think New Zealand should be immediately opening its borders to allow the spread of the virus.

So what is the viable alternative? To elect a a floundering National Party to power, that struggles to gain any support in this crisis - except perhaps for yours?

Armstronglivs wrote:

You should tell that to the jobless.

"The unemployment rate in the United States stood at 11.1% as of June. While this is a marked improvement from the 14.7% jobless rate in April, it is still higher than at any time in at least the last 70 years. In some U.S. cities – many of which are major economic hubs – the unemployment crisis is far worse than it is nationwide."

https://amp-usatoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/42187029?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15971711329864&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

and they were getting $600/week more than ever before and now if appears to be dropping to $400/week above their unemployment benefit...thus the lack of incentive to go back to work

You really shouldn't believe everything you read or see on tv.

The crisis is now, not in the future. Nothing is "permanent" in the present. So what should be the response, looking at those countries that have failed to control the spread of the virus?

New Zealand's present lockdown - which isn't at the strictest level and is focused on Auckland - is only for 3 days. I suspect it may weather it rather well.

The only alternative to controlling the virus is not controlling it. We see where that leads.

You mean, as distinct from Fox News?

So people in the US can safely go back to work now? To jobs that aren't there?

So you isolate your country from the rest of the world for an indefinite period of time and lockdown every time someone tests positive for the virus in your country? You really think this is a sustainable solution for NZ?

This is a shitty situation, obviously. But long term the only solution is herd immunity or a vaccine. The quickest vaccine we’ve ever developed was for mumps and it took over four years to develop. Do you really think your country, or any country, can continue the constant lockdowns for that long? The world is in chaos after six months of lockdowns. Herd immunity may be our best bet, unfortunately.

Work & spend money on a vaccine but we need to consider a very real possibility a vaccine is not coming anytime soon.

"You are not even from the US and you are telling us how to run our country. Typical of the liberal mindset. What 3rd world country are you from?"

I take your point. The US is a 3rd world country that requires advice from that perspective. Sorry - I can't help there.

runnerch wrote:

joedirt wrote:

There are two conditions that are optimal for the transmission of this virus: heating and air conditioning without economizers. The Asian countries you listed still mostly rely on natural ventilation (which provides lots of air changes) to stay cool and do not heat.

While that is true in rural parts of the countries and small towns, Bangkok, Ho Chi Minh City, KL and other cities in the region are crammed with modern skyscrapers - offices, hotels, condos, massive malls, etc. The cities in those countries do not rely on natural ventilation. They could not exist in their present forms. Have you ever been to SE Asia? When I'm there I run the ac almost 24/7.

He obviously hasn't been to Hanoi in the winter. Though it is very warm in Ho Chi Minh city in January. Hanoi is 700 miles north, and they do turn on the heat there in the winter.

energeticlotuseater wrote:

So you isolate your country from the rest of the world for an indefinite period of time and lockdown every time someone tests positive for the virus in your country? You really think this is a sustainable solution for NZ?

This is a shitty situation, obviously. But long term the only solution is herd immunity or a vaccine. The quickest vaccine we’ve ever developed was for mumps and it took over four years to develop. Do you really think your country, or any country, can continue the constant lockdowns for that long? The world is in chaos after six months of lockdowns. Herd immunity may be our best bet, unfortunately.

Work & spend money on a vaccine but we need to consider a very real possibility a vaccine is not coming anytime soon.

The world is in chaos because of the failure by many to deal with the public health crisis. New Zealand is not in a crisis, nor in chaos.

To develop herd immunity would require that an estimated 70 percent of the population would have to recover from the epidemic - 200 million in the US. That would overwhelm the health system and result in millions of deaths in the US - thousands in New Zealand. The problem that compounds it is that with a virus that infects everyone there is no immunity to build on.

Been there, done that wrote:

runnerch wrote:

While that is true in rural parts of the countries and small towns, Bangkok, Ho Chi Minh City, KL and other cities in the region are crammed with modern skyscrapers - offices, hotels, condos, massive malls, etc. The cities in those countries do not rely on natural ventilation. They could not exist in their present forms. Have you ever been to SE Asia? When I'm there I run the ac almost 24/7.

He obviously hasn't been to Hanoi in the winter. Though it is very warm in Ho Chi Minh city in January. Hanoi is 700 miles north, and they do turn on the heat there in the winter.

Fair point about Hanoi. But the idea that ac/heating, or lack thereof, can account for the difference between 165,000 deaths and 16 (or 58) deaths is nonsense anyway.

Armstronglivs wrote:

energeticlotuseater wrote:

Best post so far.

I hope for an effective vaccine ASAP. However, knowing how hard and rare vaccines are to come by, I think it’s reasonable to ask the question “How do we live in a world where COVID-19 is a constant reality?”

I don’t think a practical or even desirable answer is permanent or constantly reoccurring lockdowns.

The crisis is now, not in the future. Nothing is "permanent" in the present. So what should be the response, looking at those countries that have failed to control the spread of the virus?

New Zealand's present lockdown - which isn't at the strictest level and is focused on Auckland - is only for 3 days. I suspect it may weather it rather well.

The only alternative to controlling the virus is not controlling it. We see where that leads.

So what does three days do? How does a three day lock down make any sense?

Armstronglivs wrote:

A "systematic breakdown at every level of government" that has nevertheless controlled the virus with only 22 deaths and introduced record levels of targeted government spending to cushion the inevitable recession, while enabling New Zealanders to recommence their lives without any of the restrictions that we see in most other countries? I suppose you think New Zealand should be immediately opening its borders to allow the spread of the virus.

So what is the viable alternative? To elect a a floundering National Party to power, that struggles to gain any support in this crisis - except perhaps for yours?

You completely missed the point. You openly admitted that the only plan is the current plan, and I give you a fairly obvous reason why it can't be. Has NZ thought about a plan after Jan-April? If you're not asking now, you should be!

Did I suggest to elect a new party? No. Did I even suggest NZ is doing a terrible job and contianing COVID-19? Of course not!

I suggested ASKING what the long term plan is if a vaccine doesn't pan out. Why do you refuse to even discuss it. Are you an elected official or something?

Armstronglivs wrote:

why so doom and gloom? wrote:

and they were getting $600/week more than ever before and now if appears to be dropping to $400/week above their unemployment benefit...thus the lack of incentive to go back to work

You really shouldn't believe everything you read or see on tv.

You mean, as distinct from Fox News?

So people in the US can safely go back to work now? To jobs that aren't there?

Not sure what Fox News caries/covers?

This has already been stated - there are plenty of jobs - unemployment was at a record low pre-Covid. Many places that had shutdowns are now back open and need more help. Demand for many products is at all time highs and workers are needed. It really isn't all doom and gloom over here. You really should visit sometime!

Not

Look at the numbers of those that have had the virus with no symptoms and no need to spend a second in a hospital. Aren't those numbers the majority of the cases? Look at all the people that said they were tired, or had a slight fever or cough, or couldn't taste food for awhile - again no hospitalization needed. Seems like we are overprotecting the masses from something that to the masses isn't a serious health concern.

The asymptomatic give it to those who get very sick and even die - 163,000 presently in the US. A community cares for all of its members, not simply the majority or those who are untouched by misfortune. In this case, your "majority" are active spreaders of a very dangerous disease. Consequently it affects everyone.

why so doom and gloom? wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You mean, as distinct from Fox News?

So people in the US can safely go back to work now? To jobs that aren't there?

Not sure what Fox News caries/covers?

This has already been stated - there are plenty of jobs - unemployment was at a record low pre-Covid. Many places that had shutdowns are now back open and need more help. Demand for many products is at all time highs and workers are needed. It really isn't all doom and gloom over here. You really should visit sometime!

Not

You seem to miss that Covid has changed everything in the economy. Prior employment levels mean nothing. Current levels are as high as any time since the Great Depression.

No, I won't be visiting any time soon - I value my health too much - and there is no chance we will be allowing Americans into my country any time soon. But there aren't many places now where you are welcome, are there?

Armstronglivs wrote:

why so doom and gloom? wrote:

Look at the numbers of those that have had the virus with no symptoms and no need to spend a second in a hospital. Aren't those numbers the majority of the cases? Look at all the people that said they were tired, or had a slight fever or cough, or couldn't taste food for awhile - again no hospitalization needed. Seems like we are overprotecting the masses from something that to the masses isn't a serious health concern.

The asymptomatic give it to those who get very sick and even die - 163,000 presently in the US. A community cares for all of its members, not simply the majority or those who are untouched by misfortune. In this case, your "majority" are active spreaders of a very dangerous disease. Consequently it affects everyone.

Don't you think by now we know who is the high risk group and EVERYONE should be super cautious around them? And they should know if they are high risk and be cautious themselves?