Who Cares about Sweden, a state in the US has handled COVID even better and We've ignored it

mwh wrote:

this pandemic is much too complicated for layfolk (or even LRC geniuses) to figure out themselves unless they happen to be experts in the field.

Yes, I agree with this, and I'm an expert in the field so listen to me.

comedyrelief wrote:

It’s also worth noting their governor is smokin hot.

She's extremely intelligent and an excellent governor.

I wish someone like her was the current governor of California, instead of the person who is.

I disagree for multiple points. It is absurd to compare catching and spreading a virus to drunk driving.

Viruses have been around since our existence. The only way to not spread them is to have 0 contact. If I am sick, yes I do have a responsibility to behave differently. But if I'm asymptomatic that is a much harder sale to me that I'm endangering life, because there are certain inherent risks to being human that you can not remove without damaging the quality of life and inserting new risks.

Drunk driving is a choice. If I've been drinking I know it. I could hurt someone who has no idea a drunk driver is in a nearby car. I have no idea what viruses are in my body unless I am physically sick. If we're going to set the standard that zero virus spread is acceptable then there will never be a return to normal life. We were told a short stay at home period to slow the spread and build up medical resources. We have plenty of resources now but the narrative has now changed to spread is no longer acceptable and we are more than 4 months into this crisis, that is a long time.

I would live with the mask thing if that's what we were talking about. But the restrictions have gone way beyond that. If you want to believe I'm selfish for wanting things back open fine that's your call. I think those pushing for shutdowns and stopping the flow been indoctrinated by the COVID propaganda to the point they think the virus is far worse than it is. I think their irrational fears and inability to accept a small risk have taken away people's liberties to operate their businesses, support themselves, and live a life in a reasonable way.

My wife is a physician and I can say with conviction that this is a very serious crisis. She comes home from work everyday with stories of suffering like I have never heard since she started practicing in 2001. Last night she came home practically in tears, which is not something seasoned doctors typically do. She has a 60 year old married woman dying in the hospital of cancer. There are a lot of COVID patients also in the hospital. The patient is absolutely terrified of dying to the point of hysteria. Her husband cannot stand by her bedside due to the COVID risks everywhere in the hospital/community. They moved her to a ground floor bed and he stands in the bushes outside 24/7 in tears to support her through the glass. There aren't even nurses available on a regular basis to come by and chat with her because it is all hand on deck.

I realize that this sucks for people everywhere. This is real. We need to shutdown for a couple of weeks and get this under control. People don't need to go to bars, restaurants, Disney World, etc. Everyone needs to wear a mask and follow the rules. Do it for her and everyone like her. We all need to take one for the team and come together to defeat this. It is not stopping on its own and people are really suffering miserably.

Peace.

Powerul. The only thing I'd say is this need not be one-size-fits-all. There are some major things that should be perfunctory for everyone in the country:

- Limited indoor dining

-No bars or gyms

-No gatherings over 15 people

-Wear a mask if you can't distance

In places where the virus has really taken hold, limit interactions with others indoors to what is absolutely necessary. That means a lot of non-essential businesses/services are out.

Man, you just keep setting the bar lower and lower, even by LRC standards. No one seems able to change the ignorant, self-centered approach. Pro-tip look beyond your amazing bubble of South Dakota to how the rest of the civilized world is handling this. if it affected one family member seriously, you’d instantly be singing a different tune. Don’t let a little science get in the way of your “liberties”.

I'm guessing Mount Rushmore isn't crawling with South Dakotan tourists.

LennyZ wrote:

The patient is absolutely terrified of dying to the point of hysteria. Her husband cannot stand by her bedside due to the COVID risks everywhere in the hospital/community. They moved her to a ground floor bed and he stands in the bushes outside 24/7 in tears to support her through the glass.

That's because of hospital abuse, not because of an imaginary virus.

People are dying from normal causes, AND because they are not being cared for properly.

Doctor offers $5000 for proof that the virus exists -- no one has provided any proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-CLY-61QC4&t

Glad you had a nice trip. Coincidentally, my family and I had a weeklong trip mostly to SD, but also ND for a couple days, and a few stops in eastern MT and WY. We live in northern CO, so we also visit WY fairly regularly.

I agree with some of your observations, but not your conclusions. SD is definitely not as 'concerned' about the virus, but (thankfully, IMHO) there are still some customers and some grocery stores, etc. that take it seriously enough that older/at-risk people can find options. Yeah, I 'talked' to people in SD, too, because I know people that live there, and maybe they are different than the ones in tourist towns you talked to, but they think SD has it's head-in-the-sand and is delaying the inevitable, especially after Sturgis. You are right, we shall see.

I saw more masks than I thought at Mt. Rushmore (I only went there because I have young kids), but we're all outside and rarely spend more than 10 minutes in one spot. Yes, CO has more restrictions, and also like 7-8x the population and much more tourism all year (let alone second homeowners and net migration/influx). You have to remember CO was fighting some mountain outbreaks back in March. Tourists are not visiting SD in March. At the same time, CO has more creative outdoor dining and drinking options, whereas many of the tourist-town SD options are indoor with smaller, crowded patios.

All of this is even more true in ND, WY, and MT. Although of similar mentality, those states are less outspoken in patting themselves on the back, yet have the same or lower per-capita infection rates, if not death rates in some cases.

There's nothing special about SD having 'figured anything out' except for lack of population density.

What's magical about 15 inside? Is that for a 200 square foot coffee shop, or a indoor track? Should they be the same? How many kids will be in a school when they open up? How many kids are in school in the foreign countries that are already in cession?

dunes runner wrote:

LennyZ wrote:

The patient is absolutely terrified of dying to the point of hysteria. Her husband cannot stand by her bedside due to the COVID risks everywhere in the hospital/community. They moved her to a ground floor bed and he stands in the bushes outside 24/7 in tears to support her through the glass.

That's because of hospital abuse, not because of an imaginary virus.

People are dying from normal causes, AND because they are not being cared for properly.

I can't help but take offense to this. My wife is a doctor in the hospital. She is essentially "the hospital". There is no hospital abuse. There is full occupancy of COVID patients on life support and other non-COVID patients as well. My wife and everyone in the hospital comes into work each and every day to help. Patients are being cared for properly. The COVID patients need not be there risking her health and everyone else in our country if we stop it. It is up to us. It is real. It is not imaginary for god sake.

distance THIS! wrote:

why do you keep repeating a point that's so obviously and demonstrably wrong?

Why do you use cheap rhetoric and appeals to authority to try to shift the burden?

"Excess deaths" means more people died than expected. Period. It doesn't tell you any more about what they died of than the cooked-up death certificates do. They could be from any combination of other causes. The entire excess could be from causes other than covid-19 which you have not considered. There is no way to know, because the methodology of identifying who has or hasn't died of covid-19 is hopelessly screwed up.

So, for about the millionth time: there is no "death count." That hasn't been proven and it can't be. This fact will never go away no matter how angry you get about it.

You know, maybe it has something to do with South Dakota not being a travel destination. Does it have a major airport? You probably don't get people from there taking extravagant vacations either. Less people. More spread out. I can't see one reason why we don't all just adopt the South Dakota model.

Surprisingly a large amount of Indians.

From the genius who brought you 2600 cases: “The 5-10X spike in all case mortality has NOTHING to due with the virus that’s causing hospitalization rates to rise the same amount... instead it’s due to causes I can’t possibly name, but hey I must adhere to my dogma at all costs.” I know we’ve tried this before, but you do know how they count deaths for flu, cancers, other disease etc.? There’s never a one-sized-fits-all method. You have testing, modeling, projection from total deaths etc. Excess deaths are a very good measure for a novel pandemic, especially when we can match deaths directly with an increase in hospitalization for the specified symptoms. Furthermore you can design clever controls/normalization’s based on how the virus spread and various containment measures that were implemented around the world, and get a very good picture of the total burden even though behaviors have changed. You aren’t some iconoclast here. The statisticians that report the numbers were thinking about these issues when you were declaring we wouldn’t have more than 2600 cases. I honestly don’t understand your point anymore - but it’s fun for us, bro.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Why do you use cheap rhetoric and appeals to authority to try to shift the burden?

"Excess deaths" means more people died than expected. Period. It doesn't tell you any more about what they died of than the cooked-up death certificates do. They could be from any combination of other causes. The entire excess could be from causes other than covid-19 which you have not considered. There is no way to know, because the methodology of identifying who has or hasn't died of covid-19 is hopelessly screwed up.

So, for about the millionth time: there is no "death count." That hasn't been proven and it can't be. This fact will never go away no matter how angry you get about it.

It is hard to break this information to you, but Sweden have handled this terrible, a bit like the US in fact.

LennyZ wrote:

she has a 60 year old married woman dying in the hospital of cancer. There are a lot of COVID patients also in the hospital. The patient is absolutely terrified of dying to the point of hysteria.

Her husband cannot stand by her bedside due to the COVID risks everywhere in the hospital/community.

That is abuse.

They moved her to a ground floor bed and he stands in the bushes outside 24/7 in tears to support her through the glass.

That is abuse.

There aren't even nurses available on a regular basis to come by and chat with her because it is all hand on deck.

That is abuse.

Everyone needs to wear a mask and follow the rules.

That is abuse.

Are they forcing the poor woman to wear a mask too?????

If the hospital can't take good care of her, which they aren't, then at least allow her to go home with her husband!

If she dies in the hospital now, that will be because the hospital forced her to stay there on her own and did not take good care of her. If you think those things are not abuse, then who knows what other things you know about and deny.

I think there is an excess death count due to COVID. That is undeniable, it is a novel virus that was not accounted for. However, to say the excess death toll is solely due to COVIDs direct impact and not our reaction is false. There have been well-documented increase in drug and alcohol abuse. There have also been documented deaths from people afraid to seek medical treatment out of fear of catching COVID. Another factor has been isolation in the elderly. We have been going through this with my Grandma who is 91 and lives in senior living community. All the residents are essentially confined to their apartments and can not have outside visitors or visit with other residents. This has become some depressing for her that she is now alternating between staying with my parents, aunts, and uncles because she would rather risk the virus than spend an extended period of the time she has left completely isolated from human contact.

Another factor is there are nursing home deaths that would have happened in the next few months no matter what because the individual was so ill but COVID pushed the death forward. This will appear as an excess death in the present but it really needs to be treated differently than the death of someone who's remaining life expectancy was 5, 10, or 20 years.

I think people have a strong tunnel vision on the virus and really need to look at the whole impact this has had on human health. And also realize the economic fallout which is going to continue for years is going to severely impact the health of a huge portion of society that are not at risk to COVID. There are very well documented increases in death and shortened life expectancy due to financial hardship whether it is added stress, hunger, loss of shelter, etc. I think it is extremely important that we weigh these other considerations against the impact of the virus.