Time at vVO2Mx - Billat, Schwartz, Daniels, and others ?

Maybe I didn`t express myself clearky enough. The 5 k race pace is(and should be) the basic even in the middle distancers training at HS/college and university.

hgsddg wrote:

Bob schul country wrote:

I love vVo2 workouts like Billets 30-30.

I always liked 30-30 and 60-60s, but I found the longer stuff to be too brutual. Running 3+mins at faster than 3k was just too hard. I wonder if anyone has sustained success doin that.

This is a really good thread. Happy that it got bumped back to the front page.

6 x 800 at 3200 pace with one lap very slow jog used to be a staple workout for my runners. That would give us about 2:30 on and 2:30 off. The thing is, that my athletes used to exceed 3200 race pace and I used to get excited about that, thinking that the kids were always right on the cusp of a massive PR. I'm thinking back to a boy who was in his first year of running (but had done years of wrestling, so he was no stranger to hard workouts). He had won our league title for 3200, doubling back from a 1600 in 4:34 on a fairly hot day in 10:3x, just running totally easily. A few days later we were doing the "last hard workout" before our post season races. He was running his 800s at 2:26-2:28 (probably closer to the athletes 6:00 TT pace) and I was certain that he would smash through his PR and drop to the low 9:50s, high 9:40s. In the next two meets he went 10:12 and 10:08. This was pretty typical for my athletes back in the early 2000s.

To put it un-scientifically, I believe the reason my athletes (and before them, I) could do workouts of relatively high volume at relatively fast paces is because we had basically trained to do those workouts, rather than laying down the needed physiology to run a race at a sustained pace for 10-17 minutes. What was missing from our training, back then, from the training of the majority of western athletes, IMO, was the sustained sub maximal efforts of 6, 8, or even 12 miles that you see so often in the training or athletes today.

Training at VO2 max is highly anaerobic and athletes will quickly develop lactate tolerance once they start doing significant amounts of work at VO2 max pace (especially if those bouts start creeping out past the 2:00 range). IMO, what athletes were doing back then was putting the cart before the horse. They would get good at tolerating VO2 max pace for 2:00-3:00 at a time, but then take long enough rests for their blood lactate values to drop and then repeat. What we never developed very well back then was the ability to get near VO2 max WITHOUT a dramatic rise in blood lactate.

So, kids like my athlete in 2003 would get into a race, go out at 2:27 for the first 800 and have it feel easy because they'd run that pace a lot in practice, but within the next 1:00-2:00 minutes would start to die and would struggle home in 10:20. AND, as a coach, I'd feel pretty good about that because my kid might have been dying back to only 10:15 and might have been #12 in a lead pack of 12 at the 800 and move up to 6th or 7th even though he had died pretty bad, simply because everyone else was doing the same training and dying just as hard, if not harder.

So, to answer the question above, I've not seen a ton of success with doing longish intervals at 6:00 pace UNLESS they have spent months of developing their threshold first and then add a handful of actual VO2 max workouts late in the season. But, HS kids who race frequently are getting plenty of lactate tolerance and time at VO2 max already so those workouts are probably not needed. IMO, anyone racing more than 2 times a month never needs to do a true VO2 max type session.

The Wizard JS wrote:

hgsddg wrote:

I always liked 30-30 and 60-60s, but I found the longer stuff to be too brutual. Running 3+mins at faster than 3k was just too hard. I wonder if anyone has sustained success doin that.

The thing is that there is no need for running 3+ mins at faster than 3k or even 5 k race pace.( The only exception may be when preparing with repetitions at competitive speed or faster before middle distance races)

I didn't realize but JS and I were agreeing on a topic at the same time. :)

hr measurement wrote:

You have shown yourself to be not credible. Folks should ignore any coaching or training discussion with you.

Yeess! You are totally right! We should not pay attention to a coach with thirteen winners of

international races in just five years coaching and asked by great runners as Kamworor and Kiprop to coach them, LoL !

The Wizard JS wrote:

coach wrote:

As CoachB pointed out for us HS coaches Billat's protocol is simpler and more effective. Of course in the US we train for middle distance in HS.

Maybe I didn`t express myself clearky enough. The 5 k race pace is(and should be) the basic even in the middle distancers training at HS/college and university.

For many HS kids, especially beginners, 5k race pace is too slow. It's not a V02 max pace indicator.

CoachB wrote:

Training at VO2 max is highly anaerobic....::..

Anaerobic contributions to any pace approaching Vo2max is fairly minimal.

Not to highjack a thread but consider thread highjacked....

Training at some scientifically predetermined pace is BS. Train at race pace. Train to get faster at race pace. Whatever race you run. Train to become more efficient and more effective at race pace. We complicate ourselves by mislabeling what it is. The best predictor of performance isn't vVo2max or LT or anything other than RACE PACE.

We have HS athletes run 800s at 3200m pace because that is the race we want them to run. Same for 400s at 1600m pace.

I think coaches know this. Some just want to sound smart and use cool terminology learned from undergrad.

I don't coach so feel to ignore me. If I had a kid and wanted him to race well at 3200m.....we would do intervals at slightly faster than current 3200m pace. 400s, 800s, 1200s....even 1600s at the end of the season. If you can get a kid to do 3-4x1600 @ 4:45 w/800m jog I bet $100 he goes within 5sec of 9:30 at his next race.

Alan

coach wrote:

The Wizard JS wrote:

Maybe I didn`t express myself clearky enough. The 5 k race pace is(and should be) the basic even in the middle distancers training at HS/college and university.

For many HS kids, especially beginners, 5k race pace is too slow. It's not a V02 max pace indicator.

There we don`t agree :) The individual 5 k race pace is not too slow whatever it is for the individual. It`s highly anaerobic work.

coach wrote:

The Wizard JS wrote:

Maybe I didn`t express myself clearky enough. The 5 k race pace is(and should be) the basic even in the middle distancers training at HS/college and university.

For many HS kids, especially beginners, 5k race pace is too slow. It's not a V02 max pace indicator.

From my experience, I agree with what you are saying, that shorter intervals are better @ 1-2 mile pace- true Vo2 Max. Too much or too long will overload the system.

5K pace is better for longer stuff like 800- 1 mile. And short racing will always be a good to take the place of a Vo2 Max workout.

But what is your view on short rest in order to get to that place in the third lap of the mile, or last mile of the 5K? In my experience (and I understand you have a big pool to test), this was the key for me. But I did do 1/2 MP inside a LR fairly often too and my distance was 5K-Half.

I did not race often so did well with a long and short Vo2Max session a week of 1-2 mile, then 5K pace with shorter 200 meter jogs.

I guess my main problem with traditional LT training is the pace being too slow for those looking at 1 mile -5K, but it could be better for FT guys. It's about muscle recruitment and development, as well as confidence @ race pace. It seems 5K pace allows you to get to the same place quicker, and you teach yourself to run faster by shorter rest periods? But I'm pretty simple in my understanding of things.

5000m pace is 90%+ aerobic.... just sayin.....

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

5000m pace is 90%+ aerobic.... just sayin.....

Alan

Yes I understand this generally, but it might be skewed to a greater extent to those with less speed. That is why it is good for aerobic development for milers and marathon.

But you do say 16-20 X 400, with a short rest, or 4X1 mile with a short rest, it will get more anaerobic. Same way with 1 mile pace and shorter rests in 200s and 400s. The shorter rest brings you into the anaerobic side of things quick and with pretty good pace, and gets that lung busting, dead leg feeling you get in the latter stages of pretty well any race.

All I'm trying to communicate is this seems like the best way to train from 1mile -5K, for speed and endurance; muscle development, heart and lung development, lactate usage and such. You train all the systems here without going slower than 5K pace, and you can get a fair good amount of work done here. The key is what you do with the rest interval, and how slow the rest interval is ran too.

It's like the 30/40 workout for 5k. Very hard, and you could drop the paces down and do it for 2 miles, and make it extremely hard by pace and rest. You see what I mean? (not that I could ever do a 30/40, but relative to ability).

secret workouts wrote:

Billat: 4-9 minutes

Schwartz: 7 minutes

Daniels: 11 or 15 minutes

The best guess for the maximum time (tlimVO2max) at vVO2max would be? Getting to hrMx and holding it as long as physically and mentally possible is not an easy task for anyone that has tried to test their own tlimVO2max. What other ideas of our limits besides the coach/researchers mentioned above are there? Others have said your best 1 mile up to your best 5km is in the ballpark to use when designing a workout to improve your v-VO2max. Thoughts?

I wanted to go back to the very first post of this thread. At first reading, I thought it meant "How many minutes should you try to spend at VO2 max during a workout. But I think OP actually meant, "what is the best time trial length to reach VO2 max.

Both answers come with a very bid DEPENDS

1. How much time you attempt to spend at max HR during a workout depends on your overall fitness, running history, training goals, etc.... As I've stated earlier in the thread. Younger runners who are racing frequently probably never need to do specific VO2 max workouts where they attempt to hold max HR. For older runners who don't race frequently, spending a total of 6-8 minutes at Max HR is probably plenty, if not more than enough. You have to remember that the body spends significant time getting too max HR on each workbout, so an athlete might be able to do something like 5-6 x 1200 at somewhere between 3k and 5k pace and only near the last minute of each workbout, would the HR come to max.

2. If the question is, "how long does it take to reach max O2 consumption, it could be as little as 2 minutes or it could be not until the last 800 of a 5k". Without a lab, it's really tough to tell if an athlete actually has reached max O2 consumption, and so a field test is going to be, at best, a good estimate. I pesonally like the 6 minute test. The time is based off of studies where athletes VO2 max was first determined using an incremental test such as the Bruce protocol, then once max O2 consumption has been determined, they are asked (on a different day) to run at the pace that elicited VO2 max and see how long they can hold it. 6 minutes is a common average that is cited. As I stated earlier, I've built some pace charts based on a 6 minute test and have had pretty good results with my athletes training at percentages based on those charts.

The Wizard JS wrote:

coach wrote:

For many HS kids, especially beginners, 5k race pace is too slow. It's not a V02 max pace indicator.

There we don`t agree :) The individual 5 k race pace is not too slow whatever it is for the individual. It`s highly anaerobic work.

I've seen many HS kids who have 60 second 400 meter speed but they can barely run the mile in 5 minutes. Some of these runners can't break 11 for the 3200 nor 19 for a 5k. Having them run 800s in 3 minutes would not be a very good workout. Billat's 30/30 or 1 minute on 1 minute recovery would be better. As she stated you get a better bang for your buck. For many of my runners 5k race pace was more of a CV workout.

coach wrote:

The Wizard JS wrote:

There we don`t agree :) The individual 5 k race pace is not too slow whatever it is for the individual. It`s highly anaerobic work.

I've seen many HS kids who have 60 second 400 meter speed but they can barely run the mile in 5 minutes. Some of these runners can't break 11 for the 3200 nor 19 for a 5k. Having them run 800s in 3 minutes would not be a very good workout. Billat's 30/30 or 1 minute on 1 minute recovery would be better. As she stated you get a better bang for your buck. For many of my runners 5k race pace was more of a CV workout.

Well.......we can just note that our beliefs differ. I just mention an American HS kid I coached during this summer. His former best was high 18 ( close to 19) at 5 k before my coaching and low 17 at the falls first 5 k cc race ( and he told it didn`t feel all out). Had of course been no problem for me to prepare him even for some fast mile/ 2 mile with just some special repetitions workouts. I`m afraid many HS kids will be burnt out early with that "better bang for your buck"philosophy. That`s only my view of the matter.........If we look upon the matter from the view of how the Ingebrigtsen brothers(and sister) trained when in HS age we see it`s more close to what I advocate.

JS,

30/30 at vV02max pace for 20 minutes as your fastest quality run will not burn you out. This is Billat not the typical HS kids who do much more quality and faster paced runs.

The Wizard JS wrote:

The thing is that there is no need for running 3+ mins at faster than 3k or even 5 k race pace.( The only exception may be when preparing with repetitions at competitive speed or faster before middle distance races)

What about slower runners doing 1K reps, that need more than 3 mins to to run 1K reps at 5K pace?

CoachB wrote:

So, to answer the question above, I've not seen a ton of success with doing longish intervals at 6:00 pace UNLESS they have spent months of developing their threshold first and then add a handful of actual VO2 max workouts late in the season. But, HS kids who race frequently are getting plenty of lactate tolerance and time at VO2 max already so those workouts are probably not needed. IMO, anyone racing more than 2 times a month never needs to do a true VO2 max type session.

That has been my impression also. We used to do things like 800/1000s at 3k speed (i.e. call it like 1-2s/lap SLOWER than vvo2) because of the idea that was race pace and they were hard but doable. Doing them at VVo2 seems too hard. I can't imagine trying the 4x4 sessions...

I have a feeling we would have been better backing off to 5k or 10k pace when doing long intervals and getting in another 5-10mins of volume. But I am unaware of any studies looking at such minor differences (i.e. doing intervals at 5:00 pace versus 4:50 versus 5:10) and figuring out how much added volume you can do by slowing down also isn't some exact science.

I know it tested really well but in general they were comparing to much slower running (some LT threshold type pace) pace. I also sort of wonder how many athletes can do it for more than 6-8 weeks of a study.

Alan, I love your contributions to this board, so thank you, but you are indeed not a coach! You're right that any kid who can do 3-4x1600 @ 4:45 w/ 800 jog could do 9:30...because that's an insane workout for a 9:30 kid and would be indicative of even faster than 9:30. Even the total volume of 6400m at 3200 race pace is crazy. I'm a HS coach, and I think it would be "coaching malpractice" to assign 4 x 1600 (or even 3 x 1600) at 3200 pace for a high school kid, even an above-average one who can run 9:30 or in that range.

Runningart2004 wrote:

I don't coach so feel to ignore me. If I had a kid and wanted him to race well at 3200m.....we would do intervals at slightly faster than current 3200m pace. 400s, 800s, 1200s....even 1600s at the end of the season. If you can get a kid to do 3-4x1600 @ 4:45 w/800m jog I bet $100 he goes within 5sec of 9:30 at his next race.

Alan

CoachB, For what it's worth, I think the original question was "average pace for what length of a time trial (in minutes) most closely correlates with vV02max pace?" You sort of touched on that in #2, but didn't seem quite right how you were phrasing it. In other words, in this usage, for Schwartz the pace of a "vo2max" workout is going to be based off the pace of a roughly 7-minute time trial. In fact, Schwartz often assigns a 2000 TT (or 2400 TT depending on the runner) as the start of his training to set a baseline to work from.

Obviously 3-4x1600m @ 3200m isn't a workout you start your season with.

I did a lot of workouts in my youth which many modern coaches would consider "malpractice" today......hell or even then honestly.

I built up to repeat 800s in 2:12-14 with long rests. I don't remember the number....4-6 I think. Standings rests. 1mi jog after 2. A week later....4:27 1600m......going out in.....you guessed it 2:12.....

I built up to a final workout of 4 x 1600m.....again long rests.....I think it was a 1200-1600m jog. Did each 4:43-4:45ish. A week later ran 9:32 at state......going out in......4:45.....

Race Pace Matters.

Those types of workouts were key to hitting those PACES in RACES.

Alan