Time at vVO2Mx - Billat, Schwartz, Daniels, and others ?

1) Not everyone can achieve his personal VO2MAX. A normal runner on a treadmill test runs faster and faster and at one point, he reaches maximum oxygen consumption. Then he can still run faster and faster until he stops the test. The difference in being able to still run faster is anaerobic energy. However, in around 50% of people, the test ends before they even reach VO2MAX. So their oxygen consumption was still increasing but the test was stopped before they maxed out.

2) Daniels 11-15 minutes comes from an old formula made by Jimmy Gilbert, who was just a mathematician and not an exercise physiologist. The data is now completely outdated.

3) It's around 6-8 minutes, but as said before, some people don't even reach their VO2MAX in a test so for them it's probably significantly less. But over 8 minutes is extremely rare, and if it's just by a few seconds.

4) The important thing to note is that you don't have to run at VO2MAX to increase it. Daniel's I-paced intervals, which are at ~95% of VO2MAX are still very effective in rising it. Even running at CV, ~90% can still do something for VO2MAX in untrained/moderately trained runners. For elites, no matter what they do further improvements in VO2MAX are unlikely to happen. Radcliffe's VO2MAX was ~70 since she was 17, yet she got faster and faster due to improved economy and lower threshold.

I love vVo2 workouts like Billets 30-30.

As for maintaining vVo2 vs. Vo2.........Vo2max predictions or training based on it is a crapshoot.

You have to account for other variables like whether the athletes LT is actually stable at 88% of max. Whether aeribic development and stregnth to weight ratios are comparable.

I like vVo2 better for those reasons. Relys more on a singular aspect and is not as subjective to other influences.

THe velocity that you can maintain over a certain amount of time. Seems so simple.

Yes, this nicely sums it up. It's also important to note that anaerobic energy is being used well before you reach vVO2max. It's not as if you reach VO2max on 100% aerobic energy and then start using anaerobic. Both energy systems are always active - it's just that the aerobic system is literally maxed out at vVO2max once you reach a steady state of O2 consumption (~2 mins of continuous running at that velocity).

Laboratory VO2max tests are done to volitional exhaustion, which means a lot of people quit earlier than they are physiologically capable of running. Experienced runners will not. I've conducted over 200 VO2 max tests, and many people feel the urge to quit as early as ~90% of max HR. They simply aren't used to feeling that uncomfortable with exercise, especially not when they've got a tight mask strapped around their face.

Another challenging aspect of collecting true VO2max values is that you need to increase the workload and not see an increase in O2 consumption. This means that the individual should reach their VO2max (and will be suffering badly), and then you'll make it even harder on them to see if they truly are at VO2max.

I don’t know what physio you are going to where they stop the test before you reach vo2max mate.

Vo2max is trained the best by running at or close to vo2max. There is no need to go OVER because your body limits oxygen consumption and there will be no extra benefit. The time spent at vo2 is individualized based on current mileage and fitness. A world class athlete might run mile repeats at vVo2max and do 5 or even 6 of them. A moderately trained runner who is not as fast might only do 2 or 3. Time spent at vVo2max shouldn’t be limited by any formula. The suggested time is suggested because vo2 is a hard efffort to maintain, and after a while you will get diminishing returns on your workout.

cbenson4 wrote:

Laboratory VO2max tests are done to volitional exhaustion, which means a lot of people quit earlier than they are physiologically capable of running. Experienced runners will not. I've conducted over 200 VO2 max tests, and many people feel the urge to quit as early as ~90% of max HR. They simply aren't used to feeling that uncomfortable with exercise, especially not when they've got a tight mask strapped around their face.

Another challenging aspect of collecting true VO2max values is that you need to increase the workload and not see an increase in O2 consumption. This means that the individual should reach their VO2max (and will be suffering badly), and then you'll make it even harder on them to see if they truly are at VO2max.

Just a side issue - does this mean that many runners under estimate their max hr?

cheesewiz wrote:

I don’t know what physio you are going to where they stop the test before you reach vo2max mate.

Vo2max is trained the best by running at or close to vo2max. There is no need to go OVER because your body limits oxygen consumption and there will be no extra benefit. The time spent at vo2 is individualized based on current mileage and fitness. A world class athlete might run mile repeats at vVo2max and do 5 or even 6 of them. A moderately trained runner who is not as fast might only do 2 or 3. Time spent at vVo2max shouldn’t be limited by any formula. The suggested time is suggested because vo2 is a hard efffort to maintain, and after a while you will get diminishing returns on your workout.

Sorry if I caused any confusion, what I meant was that the runners "give up" and force a stop to the test before their oxygen consumption was maxed out. The maximum value that they achieve then is not their true VO2MAX, but vVO2MAX (fastest velocity they can reach aerobically).

It's true that going above VO2MAX is not recommended if goal is to work aerobically and improve it. There might be other reasons for training at faster paces tho (muscular development, anaerobic capacity, lactate tolerance, working on the kick/finish etc.).

Moderately trained runners don't need to work much at VO2MAX to improve it - just by running more mileage, and threshold, with occasional races thrown in their will keep developing them. Also the recovery after such sessions is a lot longer than if an elite is doing it with a VO2MAX of 80+. If we take 7-8 min race pace, for an elite that's ~3k race pace. An elite can do 6x1k@3k, which would be a very hard/tough workout, similar to a race and recover/benefit from it. For moderately trained runner, 6x1k @3k (or a bit faster, to reach his true VO2MAX) is too much and would take very long to recover.

Daniel's prescribes workouts at 95% VO2MAX of ~1k length. Like 6x1k @5k pace, which is a great stimulus, and nowhere near as taxing as 6x1k @3k pace would be. That works again for all runners, but would still be a tough session.

Are you an exercise physiologist?

I agree, adding a few 'maybe''s or 'I think', or 'from what I have read' wouldn't go amiss. Comes across like he has written peer reviewed papers on the subject.

It sounds picky, but on a public forum that lots of people might read, you should be more responsible with how you spout out information.

Alfie wrote:

Just a side issue - does this mean that many runners under estimate their max hr?

I was thinking this recently too, yes I reckon they do. Its not often mentioned but the ability (if that's the right word) to actually reach ones Max Hr isn't something many people 'can' do, i.e. they wuss out way before they get close, kinda the same at the end of the 5K, its not often the fittest that wins but who can suffer the most, and dig the deepest into their pain cave on the final stretch.

HITHEREYOU wrote:

Alfie wrote:

Just a side issue - does this mean that many runners under estimate their max hr?

I was thinking this recently too, yes I reckon they do. Its not often mentioned but the ability (if that's the right word) to actually reach ones Max Hr isn't something many people 'can' do, i.e. they wuss out way before they get close, kinda the same at the end of the 5K, its not often the fittest that wins but who can suffer the most, and dig the deepest into their pain cave on the final stretch.

Yes, it's quite hard to reach true max HR. As a result, it's possible that people underestimate it. However, in a laboratory setting, people can stop whenever they want. I used ~90% as a very rough estimate of where they were. Often, they'd stop around 175-185 bpm (young adults 20-22 years old). Obviously 220 - age doesn't work very well, but it gives a general idea of where some people should be.

If you reach true VO2max, though, and then go even further after workload is increased, you will surely reach max HR, especially since most tests are graded exercise tests, meaning the proctor will usually increase %grade and speed by a each stage following the Bruce protocol, causing more muscle mass to be recruited, which forces more O2 to be consumed and the heart to beat relatively faster than if on a flat grade. In other words, you have even less of an excuse to reach max, but yes, it will be very painful.

I’ve only ever hit it on a 5k race.

One good way of testing, is doing it on a stationary bike, as you can get to it easier than by running.

if you are not trained for biking, your legs will be smoked way before max HR and VO2max.

I suppose the last ~ 800m of a 5k, most all runners would see their true hrMx. Very easy to get to 95%, it’s that last 5% that is held in reserve.

I hit 200 on an indoor trainer (VO2 max test) but have only hit 193 running outdoors. I have only worn a HR monitor for one race though.

Impala31 wrote:

if you are not trained for biking, your legs will be smoked way before max HR and VO2max.

Impala is right. I also proctored many tests on the bike. Mind you, these were people who were sedentary or only somewhat active. They didn't get anywhere near their max.

I also tested a cross country runner who was in about 16:30 shape and he got nowhere near max on the bike.

cbenson4 wrote:

Impala31 wrote:

if you are not trained for biking, your legs will be smoked way before max HR and VO2max.

Impala is right. I also proctored many tests on the bike. Mind you, these were people who were sedentary or only somewhat active. They didn't get anywhere near their max.

I also tested a cross country runner who was in about 16:30 shape and he got nowhere near max on the bike.

Also, the idea that it's easier to hit max on the bike is fundamentally wrong. You will use less muscle mass on the bike compared to running.

A lot of you guys are missing a very important point when it comes to vVO2 and race paces.

An elite who races the 3k in 7:45 will likely be at vVO2, and reps at 3k pace would be true vVO2 pace.

A noob who races the 3k in 13 minutes is nowhere near vVO2. At 3k pace a noob is probably closer to threshold.

Over the last couple of years, I’ve started basing the bulk of my team’s workouts on 6 minute time trials that we run periodically. Most of my beginners won’t even reach 1600m in 6 min. In fact a large number of beginners are in the 1150-1300 range for 6!minutes, while my studs will be closer to 2k

So, mile race pace for a beginner would be sub maximal and for an advanced kid would be Supra maximal.

Once we started Roughly tying workout paces to an identified physiological variable, it’s been a lot easier to get steady progression out of the kids.

Training Paces by Distance

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1evkKg77TqsG6tC4tvBnc6QICKHLWI4ClJUHCXG5EX0A/edit?usp=sharing

Training Paces by Minute

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y-ZQFI1nWqmOr3oTn_aH6jo4VZBN2vvQYcae8DOceto/edit?usp=sharing

Common workouts for us (HS, summer)

3-5 x 3 min @ 90% (CV) + Sprints up stadium ramp or 4 x 200 @ 1600 "dream" goal pace. So, a kid who ran 1800m on a 6 min test would probably run 4 x 810m @ 3 min with a 1 min jog, then spike up and run 4 x 200 @ 35 with full recovery. (because I want that kid thinking about running 4:40 by the time track season comes around. Obviously, for this kid, I could just say 4-5 x 800 @ 2:58, but it's way easier to manage the team if they all know about how far they have to go. After each rep, the group leader just yells out how far his or her group went on that rep and I record it.

3-5 x 5 min @ 85% (Threshold) + strides, ramp sprints, etc... Same idea as above. Many of my kids have a tough time with continuous tempo efforts, especially the ones who have some talent and good base fitness from an explosive sport like soccer or basketball.

20-40 min continuous at 75% - 80% vVO2. + strides, ramps, 200s, etc... I'll do this workout with more experienced kids who have been able to bring their threshold up, and have some miles in the bank. This one is more effective for kids with less natural speed as well. For some of the very advanced kids, we try to work all they way up to 70 min, trying to get around 75% vVO2 (although we usually won't get there until the pre season between cross and track.

As we get closer to racing season, we do stuff at 95% and 100% vVO2. Once we've run a few races, we do a lot more stuff based on actual race times in a kid's specific event.

Thx you