A very simple question

We can't speak about "doping". This is something general, when instead different substances have a very different effect, and involve different qualities.

In sprint, doping is used for increasing the muscle strength, and for making more effective the endurance to the frequency, something depending in great part on the nervous system.

These effects are produced mainly by STEROIDS. But the assumption of steroids doesn't produce directly a big increase of strength, if not connected with a very hard work with weights and in direction of increasing the body mass.

For that reason (the ability to work more increasing the volume of the specific training of strength), EPO can support in NOT DIRECT WAY the training of sprinters, making faster the recovery inside every session and inside a microcycle.

Completely different is the effect of taking EPO. This can have action only for enhancing the ability to transport Oxygen, NEVER producing more benefit than a hard and proper training of Aerobic Power in altitude.

Therefore, if EPO can increase the transport of Oxygen, that means to enhance the Lactic Threshold, Who can have advantage from the assumption are athletes whose working area is the Anaerobic Lactic at high intensity (400-800m), because these kind of workouts need high quantity of Oxygen for recovering, and normally the athletes running these events don't have aerobic training at the right intensity and with the right volume, for problems of mentality (they don't like this kind of fatigue).

For answering your questions, there is no doubt that Marita Koch and Jarmila Kratochvilova were doped, taking a lot of steroids.

Instead, I think that also long distance runners could have some improvement in their performance taking steroids, because their situation is the opposite of specialists of short distances : the "Aerobic Athletes" don't like to work for enhancing their strength, because this is a type of fatigue they consider "useless" because there is not the same type of sufference they reach running very fast for long time.

So, there is not a distance where doping doesn't have effect, depending on doping.

My ideas, coming from my observations for longer than 50 years (I know what sectors like throwing did in the past with steroids) is as follow :

1- EPO : the effect is to raise the level of Aerobic Power, so works with all the athletes who don't train in proper way that quality, and doesn't work for all the athletes using altitude and working with great extension and intensity in the Aerobic field. If they use proper training, already from 5000m there are not advantage. If athletes don't work in that direction, since for long distances the Aerobic Power is the key of the performance, they can have advantage.

In other words : with EPO, athletes can cut the time needed for reaching a high level of Aerobic Power, but not the maximal level. The most part of doped athletes (with EPO) start tu use it when they want to find some shortcut for reaching in two months time the same level possible with 4-5 months of clean training (this was the case of Rita Jeptoo), but THEY CAN'T REACH A LEVEL HIGHER THAN THE LEVEL REACHABLE WITH TRAINING ONLY, using more time.

2- STEROIDS : the main effect is to allow athletes working more in direction of strength, and for that reason who more benefitted of this doping were sprinters (specifically women), throwers, and jumpers (people using explosivity and fundamental strength, more than endurance).

And also, generalisations are not possible. For example, if we look at the Chinese boom of 1993, we can see how the talent of Wang Junxia was something different from the other Chinese athletes. Probably she used some substance helping recovery and Oxygen transportation (maybe the blood of turtles really produced some benefit), but was so much far from the other teammates (apart Qu Yunxia) that is not possible to speak about "state doping" as reason of her performances, without thinking she was a "freak of nature".

Hi Renato:

What do you think about the potential of Donavan Brazier? What do you think of his performance in the 2 x 2 x 400m mixed relay? Do you ever use training like that (repeat 400m at 800m race pace with short rest) with your athletes?

Thanks!

After the change of citizenship of Stephen, going to Qatar, I remaining with him in the same training camp, many times in the same room when there were competitions, and he became as a son for me. Do you think possible not to see something suspicious, living 24 hours together ?

But this is not thye point. The point is to know the mentality of Shaheen : he wanted to show himself, as priority, that was the number one in the World, using his own talent (also mental) only.

Stephen was a little bit presumptuous, sometimes arrogant, but his mental strength was continued nurtured by his personal convinction to show himself he was the best ever in the World.

Stephen never wanted to take some supplement, or some vitamin, completely legal. For him, something legal or illegal was the same : both were an external aid, and he didn't want any help because, for demonstrating to himself to be the best in the World, he "didn't want to cheat himself".

But also Kenenisa had the same motivation : "A coach can help me giving a right plan and teaching what I have to do in training, nobody can help me giving something for changing my body. I was to be the best because I was gifted by God, and because I accept to work very hard, but never I want to use something for changing my natural qualities".

HRE, the problem is that here almost everybody thinks that AUTOMATICALLY if you are one of the bests YOU ARE DOPED.

So, while it's possible somebody doped is among the best, and I can accept this as a fact (also if I don't believe can give advantage), the normal posters don't accept the possibility that one of the best can be clean. Of course, till some "scientist" that doesn't know anything about athletics says that you can earn 4 minutes in a marathon and 1 minute in 10000m, it's difficult for readers to know the reality. But everybody has to understand that physiologists doing researches with normal people or weak athletes, when try to transfer the results to another category (the top performers), have the same knowledge a mechanic can have speaking about astronautics.

Thanks Renato. Appreciate the response.

Renato Canova wrote:

And after.... there are the idiots using USELESS doping WITH THE ONLY EFFECT TO DESTROY THEIR CAREER, because they could achieve the same results in clean way.

It's correct to ban these athletes, not because have some advantage (I speak about Kenyans), but because are stupid, unethical and push people to think that without doping is not possible to win.

The prohibited substances on the doping list are there because they demonstrably affect

physical performance.But as you say there are probably some caught dopers who could have

achieved similar results just with proper training, but I suppose they are easily counted.

What we unfortunately have to reckon with in this context is the increased temptation to dope oneself in a country where the runner lacks other opportunities for a secure financial future.If the runner is a native of such a country there will always be increased suspicion of fast results.And , of course, substandard doping control often contributes to this.

webby wrote:

I continue to have the stupid idea that 25%-50% of diamond league, WC, and Olympic races are won by people who have broken anti-doping rules because they have evidence that they couldn't win without doing so.

I have no idea about these athletes (could be great shoes) or the great El Guerrouj or Kenenisa Bekele (they are obviously very special). But for people like Rupp, Farah, Coleman, and Radcliffe, who have a record of suspicious behavior, missed tests, and/or damning test results, I think they have earned the skepticism they receive here and have done far too little to create transparency that might clear their names.

More along the lines of ~70%

Nobody is under your illusions. We make our own.

Running at the highest level requires doping. That is a fact. There is a trend you can see over the last two decades with the development of the Salazar method, American distance running has exploded.

TUEs and micro doping.

News has been leaked of several athletes doing this, ask any of the four athletes you mentioned what supplements and medications they are on?

With all respect to a great coach, but you will never be able to prove these assumptions for obvious reasons. I mean to prove your hypothesis you would need to consciously dope your best runners with EPO and see what the outcome was. It stops at being a personal belief or qualified guess. Take care! :)

slripe111 wrote:

Nobody is under your illusions. We make our own.

Running at the highest level requires doping. That is a fact. There is a trend you can see over the last two decades with the development of the Salazar method, American distance running has exploded.

TUEs and micro doping.

News has been leaked of several athletes doing this, ask any of the four athletes you mentioned what supplements and medications they are on?

Yes. Go ahead and make your illusion that all athletes are doping and everything is a hoax. I’m ?

Sure many Elite distance runners are clean. Many aren't. Hard to know the true numbers. If all top tier runners were randomly tested (and frequently at that), we would have a better idea, but it's not feasible. Too expensive. I think, from what I've read, that you are an excellent coach who is passionate about his runners and wants them to achieve their very best. I applaud that. When one or more of them (your runners) are accused of doping, not only does it affect them, it can also affect you as it is a reflection on you. Even if they do it without your knowledge. You take it very personally, as would I. Like every internet site which contains forums, will 100% have trolls. Anytime a fast time is thrown down, many of these trolls will respond with "doping." Maybe, some of them actually believe that. Many of it is just tongue in cheek. Don't take it so personally and continue to be the great coach and person that you are.

Thank you for the very interesting comments, Renato. Hopefully what you say is true.

Take a look, though, at the following extraordinary thread. The poster MuhammadAA admits to doping and claims everyone was doing it, in the late 90s to early 00s.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9757256

He is an Olympic standard athlete. It seems to imply for example that El Guerrouj cannot have been clean.

He does, though, say that 'it helps, but the fast people would be fast anyway', which somewhat supports your main argument, Renato.

It is hard to say that doping can't change a runner.I don t beli e that all the top athletes are doped but some are so obvious.

Mo Farah is the most infamous case...He never was a superior talent, a good but not great runner. And suddenly he turns into a nearly unbeatable machine after joining Salazar at 28 years old.

It s so wrong and unbelievable. Of course Salazar is now banned for doping violation.

This argument is made way too much with nothing backing it. Mo Farah joined NOP in 2010. He ran 1:48,3:33,7:34,13:07 all years before joining NOP. His 13:07 was in 2007. Look at his progression again, it’s not that unrealistic

cheesewiz wrote:

This argument is made way too much with nothing backing it. Mo Farah joined NOP in 2010. He ran 1:48,3:33,7:34,13:07 all years before joining NOP. His 13:07 was in 2007. Look at his progression again, it’s not that unrealistic

Thats wrong. Look at his results.

Did not pass the heats in 2008. Got dismantled in the 2009 final.

He was a jobber at world level, never a factor.

In 2011 he joins NOP and suddenly out of nowhere create an unbeatable finish.

The Lance Armstrong of distance running.

a separate question.

why do people in track consistently downplay the role of genetics/ "talent". I know myth-making doesn't pair well with "one or both parents are world -class athletes" .

Yes training properly is key (and the world is littered with offspring of athletes who haven't done anything ).

Renato,

What are the keys that are happening in BTC training that allow for these performances to be possible in your opinion?

Thank you, Renato, for posting the contradiction that is LetsRun.com

What are your thoughts on the shoes/spikes and technology of "mechanical doping" since you have been in the sport such a long time? No big deal since Bikila won barefoot and Shorter won with cardboard soles, etc. ?

Thoughts on shoes/spikes?